perhaps back in "your day" it was possible to just get on the job experience, but unfortunately these days its become harder to find decent work.

I think you are assuming that I am much older than I am.  I only started working in my field 8 years ago and held only one full-time job previously in a non-profit literacy program  that was tangentially related to my current career.

i would like to see you apply for a job with zero experience or qualifications....i expect this done with no help by yourself, as i hardly think every teenager has a friend or family member who can get them into their dream career.

Actually, I did.  I have a pretty useless grad school degree in MFA for writing which is really good for nothing except for spending a couple of years BSing with a bunch of other young hopeful writers at the local bar.

I sent in applications blindly to a bunch of publishing houses and literary agents around town, had a round of interviews, rejected a couple of offers where the person I interviewed with annoyed the heck out of me, and ended up working in sales and marketing in publishing which is the last part of publishing I expected to work in.

I dislike the Publishing programs because I think it's a swindle.  They don't teach enough to warrant the tuition fees they charge.  If anyone interested in publishing asked me how to make it, I would say that if they wanted some experience, they should try offering themselves for an internship if they can afford it (at least that's free rather than paying a tuition).  And if they can't afford that, I'd tell them to just try putting in applications anywhere around town.  (If you happen to be looking for a job in publishing, check out the job boards by googgling Publishers Lunch or Media Bistro, the two most used job boards by publishers. Some publishers don't advertise on either, so it's also good to check out their individual websites.)  

I am switching companies this year to a small publishing house where I will be the only person who will not have started off as a receptionist there.  As a publishing house, they don't look for people with publishing programs on their resume.  They look for bright people with an interesting literary aesthetic who are willing to learn a great deal and who are eager to help out.  They train people thoroughly and treat people very well.  

The other thing I would say about publishing is that editorial positions are the most competitive, so chances of getting an editorial position are much harder than any other position.  There are many rewarding parts of publishing, from finances to sales, publicity to marketing, to production and design.  Too many young people only think of editing and don't understand that there are many positions available.  That said, almost no position in publishing will pay well.  It has always been a low-salary industry (as I've said on a different thread, it could well be that Starbucks pays their baristas better than an entry-level publishing job).  

And that's the other reason I am against publishing programs.  Since the job pays so little, whoever attends these publishing programs by taking out an educational debt will find themselves paying off that debt for years on end.  By the way, since publishing is a low-salary industry, most people who get an entry-level position, including those who get an editorial position, inevitably leave.  Another reason not to attend a publishing program because chances of publishing actually becoming one's career is very low.

I don't say that getting a good job in any field is easy.  However, I also don't think it's all about degrees as people seem to want to believe.  I've worked with people from Ivy League colleges and grad programs who were fired because they weren't willing to xerox or do the small nitty-gritty things that are part of any business. I've also seen people promoted who came from unknown colleges because they were bright and did well on the job.

Sorry for this extremely long post, but I wanted to explain my position fully, and also say that I don't view the world as being as rigid and narrow as you make it out to be.  

they should try offering themselves for an internship if they can afford it

I think this is pretty much crucial. For most career paths, the biggest value you get out of a university education is the fact that universities tend to facilitate getting good internships (and good / great universities get you better / excellent internships). Unless you are training in a technical career (i.e. computer science, IT, engineering) where you're going to get some sort of certification that means something, you really need to do some internships while you're in college if you want to get a job right away when you get out (and even if you're in those more technical fields, it still helps to get an internship). If you are getting a general B.A. or M.A. in something like History or English Lit or Philosophy or what have you, you MUST intern if you want to easily get a job. My wife made this mistake - she got an M.A. in History and was an excellent student, which meant that she was well funded and was given many opportunities at the undergrad and grad level to work within her program at the university, help arrange university sponsored conferences, do advanced research to assist professors, and so on. She had a wonderful resume / mile long C.V., but few contacts and little work experience outside her university work (since she had gotten university jobs each summer that paid well). It took her almost nine months to find a job because nobody wanted to hire someone that didn't have demonstrated "work experience" (never mind that she completed an MA in a difficult, well regarded, highly ranked program). Degrees don't have nearly as much value as they used to - what really counts now is "work experience" and, as always, networking & connections.

she got an M.A. in History and was an excellent student, which meant that she was well funded and was given many opportunities at the undergrad and grad level to work within her program at the university, help arrange university sponsored conferences, do advanced research to assist professors, and so on. She had a wonderful resume / mile long C.V., but few contacts and little work experience outside her university work (since she had gotten university jobs each summer that paid.

I had this problem as well.  Before my MFA, I was in grad school for Lit.  And like your wife, I worked for one university department or another or for a professor doing research.  The whole time, I was getting further into debt with student loans.  

Ironically, what saved me was going to an MFA since the university for the MFA gave me a living stipend, free tuition, and a way to defer my debt.  Additionally since it was an MFA with light course requirements, I managed to get an entry-level job during my second year there, only four years behind my college classmates who studied physics and statistics.  

what saved me was going to an MFA since the university for the MFA gave me a living stipend, free tuition, and a way to defer my deb

Yeah, that's totally the way to go if you're pursuing a Masters or a PhD. Basically, you're foolish if you're paying to go to grad school (unless you're going for an MBA, or going to law school or medical/dentistry/optometry/veterinary school, where you're guaranteed fat checks once you get out and get certified). The stipends aren't huge, but they're usually enough to get by on, and when you consider how much you're saving by not paying tuition and by being able to defer those undergrad loans (and not racking up new ones) it makes a huge difference. I don't understand the people that will shell out another $20k or $30k for an MA in Philosophy - what are you going to do with that? Where's the value? It's one thing if the school will give you free tuition and a stipend - then at worst you're just losing two years or so of potential (but not guaranteed) income, but to actual pay cash money...it blows my mind. If you're going to pay cash for an advanced degree, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and get an MBA or something at least remotely practical.

I don't understand the people that will shell out another $20k or $30k for an MA in Philosophy - what are you going to do with that? Where's the value?

As someone who got 30,000 in debt to go to grad school for lit, and leaving without getting that degree, I will tell you what was on my mind at least.

I was a kid in senior year of college who had glorified ideas about spending the rest of my life reading books on literature and occasionally teaching classes.  Granted, my advisor told me all about the politics of department and teaching courses that were boring.  Did I listen? Nope.  

Now, older and finally out of debt, I try not to underestimate the power of my own delusions.

Please don't encourage anyone to get an MBA.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

It is really not too different in the entertainment industry. It doesn't matter what your background is, educational or otherwise. A feature film producer I know was telling a story last month about a 40 year old friend who was like a VP or something in his field and he wanted to get into film. This guy was a good friend of his and the man was in a position to give him any cushy job he wanted. But he told him to go be a production assistant. You basically have to start out as a PA making all but minimum wage. That's not enough to live on here and the only people I know who do it don't really need the money--they're just trying to move up in the business. If you think about, that's an amazingly high glass ceiling for getting into a line of work. I have engineering friends who got paid better on their college internships.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

If you think about, that's an amazingly high glass ceiling for getting into a line of work.

True, yet film and publishing are also similar that there's never a shortage of people lining up to get into the industry.

People have asked me why I didn't get an MBA (which I did consider at one point) and stayed in publishing.  And what can I say: it's an addiction.  

I did poorly in languages as well, I think because of the repetition that is necessary to actually learn them, more than in any other field.  But there's a learning method that seems like it might be right up your alley, since you already have the basics of several languages: Just Read.  Read a little bit of those languages, as often as you can, and you'll gradually find yourself improving.

I look for DVDs in French that have French subtitles: I find that they improve my listening comprehension because I can relate what I'm hearing to the words I read in my lesson books.

The research skills I learned in my history courses and the rhetorical skills I learned in my english and psych classes have been absolutely invaluable to me in the working world. Sure the software skills I picked up on my own--you can build a database in access? wow, we've never heard of such a person here!--are what have landed me every job I've had but the problem solving required of me in my humanities background is without a doubt what has allowed me to excel and move up. Do I wish I'd grabbed a management/accounting minor so someone would respect the real world finance background I have so I can bump my salary up another few grand? Sure but that's not what I want to do long term anyway.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

Aptitude tests are illegal?

See Griggs v. Duke Power.

I think if the court revisted this issue today it would rule differently.

See Griggs v. Duke Power.

The Court found that under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, if such tests disparately impact ethnic minority groups, businesses must demonstrate that such tests are "reasonably related" to the job for which the test is required.

No melanin tests allowed?  How will our civilization endure?

employee aptitude have been declared illegal,

Umm, Gord?  It pains me to tell you this, but business in Maine have been using a test called the TABE for years as a hiring tool. I was very active in the adult education community for years and many adult educators were pretty steamed that business was using the test in that manner.  

I've been out of that field for a few years now, but as far as I know, it's still in use. (although, why line workers need to know algebra is beyond me).

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

Must be legal because everyone in Maine is white.

Nope...we gots lot more black folks here what with emancipation an' all.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

See the SCOTUS decision I linked above.

I'm guessing they can do that because it's not a "broad aptitude test", and the business that use it only screen out those that don't meet a minimum standard of education. Microsoft and Google use (or have used) limited proxies for IQ tests in hiring, but so far they haven't been challenged.

Microsoft and Google use (or have used) limited proxies for IQ tests in hiring, but so far they haven't been challenged.

I thought about applying to Google a few years ago but was really put off by the jackass application procedure as outlined by a friend who works there.  It seems that they won't even interview you unless you have one of the top 20 universities on your resume.

I've met plenty of idiots who graduated from a top notch university.  Any corporation that doesn't place work experience and good judgment skills ahead of a name brand college degree is asinine and puffed up on pedantry.

Someone's quantified what the 20th best university in the country is?

Well, was he a JD/PhD? Those are two separate degrees so somebody would be entitled to sign their name "Sal Hapablab, JD, PhD".

But I agree, the Esq and JD are redundant.

Yes but his PhD was in law. It's a separate degree but it also basically trumps the first. I mean I understand wanting to convey you're an esq with a phd in law but at some point you've got to step back and say 3 just looks ridiculous on there.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

OK, I see what you are saying. So he should have either been Mr. X, PhD, Esq (but then, isn't Esq a British heraldry term denoting a large landholder or something? So does that go after the terminal degree (PhD) because it is in its own category or before? Ugh) or Mr. X, JD, PhD, but not both.

Or perhaps, Dr. X, JD or Dr. X, Esq. Heh.

I think it's Esq and Phd without the JD.

Someone can be a JD without being an esquire, but I believe that it's very rare for someone to become an esquire without the JD (although I think there's some option for those who want to do the bar without a law degree; I think in order to take that option, one has to prove several years of working in the legal field as a legal secretary, paralegal or somesuch).

I think it's Esq and Phd without the JD.

That's exactly the point. As pO illustrated, he signed his documents Mr. Hillbop Jamimany, JD, PhD, Esq. And strangely, despite all that, he left off the "Dr." title he theoretically could have given himself, possibly shortening the whole thing in the mean time. I think he wanted to highlight the fact that his PhD was in the law.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

The "you... you just don't get it." Was because they don't get it either. It's the "cool" thing to do..or whatever word signifies "cool" now a days. No one knows why they do it. They just do. Sort of like the teenager that blast the radio in their car that sets off car alarms as they go down the street of a nice suburban neighborhood. It's just the thing you do to make you cool.

"The problem, in my opinion, is that people, with all their new gadgets, internet, and computer, seem generally content and happy, albeit a little stupefied when asked to engage in a real conversation."

i agree with that to a certain extent...but again i feel the whole "cool" thing is in play. Are they actually happy? or do they just believe that at this moment this is what society (their teenage/young adult society) is saying is what they need to be happy?

My guess is Annabel Lee's.