Diary

Black Man Tells It Like It Is--What Do You Expect From A Black Man

thefadd.

Posted to Diary on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:29:31 AM EST. RSS.

Yet another political candidate has been impaled for telling the truth--oh wait, that never happens.

Barack Obama likely clinched the urban hipster vote away from Hillary Clinton today when he remarked in a fundraiser that gun toting redneck hicks are too attached to their violently religious ways of life to stop being a burden to society and give up on the fact that their cushy manufacturing jobs are gone overseas for good. Or something like that.

Free-market nouveau Conservatives everywhere hailed Obama's comments as a positive turn away from his previous obviously manufactured stance that attempted to coddle the anti-NAFTA vote.

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1

Why don't we wait and see how impaled he is?

MayorBob.

Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 09:15:06 AM EST

4.00 (astute)

Obama is sticking to his guns on his remark on small town America deciding their vote more over guns and gay marriage than over the economy.  You know what?  I give him credit for at least not trying to completely remold what he said to curry favor.  He did try to use a little nuance in his follow up comment by framing it in terms of recognizing that people are fed up with the status quo and ready for change.

Of course Hillary and McCain are jumping all over this statement as if he were promising that day one of the Obama administration he was going to send out the police to confiscate guns and force everyone into a same sex marriage.  Considering the fact that Obama has managed to either explain or blunt the attack dogs over stuff like his reverend mentor and his Chicago chums, I have to believe he'll weather this storm.

 

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Black Man Tells It Like It Is--What Do You Exp

port1080.

Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:25:57 PM EST

4.00 (astute, interesting)

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations," he said.

Ehhh, I can see where he's coming from, but I grew up in small town PA and I don't think he's partly right and partly not. I think he's 100% right about the anti-immigration / anti-free trade sentiment - that directly stems from fears that immigrants will take jobs. Religion and guns, on the other hand - that was a reckless and obnoxious comment. Religion has been a part of small town Pennsylvania life since the founding of the country - church social halls are often the largest public gathering place many of these small towns have. Frankly, I just find the whole comment puzzling - is Obama trying to imply that religion is somehow a bad, anti-progressive thing? Maybe he is, but if so then his own "faith" is a bit puzzling, no? And as far as the gun issue goes - this just shows that Obama really doesn't have a clue about rural concerns, basically. People in small town Pennsylvania hunt and target shoot for sport. People in small town Pennsylvania very, very rarely have to deal with gun crime - it's just not an issue. Of course they oppose gun control. What do you expect? If you want to change their mind, you need to make that argument in terms they can understand - not just call them bitter bigots.

Once again I'm disappointed in Obama. I was almost 100% behind him, and then the whole Wright fiasco happened. I had almost gotten over that, and now this (which, frankly, I find far more insulting and is far more damaging, at leas to my opinion, than the Wright thing was). I forget who said it but during the Wright affair someone here mentioned how Obama seemed out of touch with rural areas and to not have a really good plan for rural development, even though he had spent a ton of time on his urban renewal plans. Those comments were absolutely prescient.

4

Bitter?

Steve Urkel.

Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 03:00:31 PM EST

4.00 (brilliant, interesting, brilliant)

One of the curious things about liberals that they can't comprehend that people might have legitimate reasons for not being liberal.

Obama seems not to grasp that many people like guns. They enjoy hunting, and value the 2nd Amendment. And they sleep better at night knowing if one of his cousins breaks in the door they can defend themselves.

He doesn't understand that many oppose immigration not because they are "frustrated" or "anti-immigrant" or suffer from "antipathy to people who aren't like them", but because it's a bad deal for them. They feel (and in this matter the evidence overwhelmingly supports them) that mass immigration ruins their schools, lowers their wages, and increases their housing costs, and transforms their country, while not providing any commensurate benefits.

Obama's condemning people for "clinging" to their religion is bizarre. Some people are religious, and given that Obama claims to be religious and clings to a pastor who is a hate-mongering loon you really have no business criticizing anyone in this matter.

Even more curious, liberals are surprised when people whose values they hold in contempt vote against them.

While I've never thought Obama exceptionally intelligent, these remarks are truly stupid and a massive political misstep.

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Your Sheet Is Showing

logan.

Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:12:58 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Obama claims to be religious and clings to a pastor who is a hate-mongering loon

Clings to? Obama has repeatedly and publicly disavowed Wright and his comments. He rescinded his invitation to Rev. Wright to give the invocation at his official presidential announcement. he's disavowed Wright and issued this statement:

Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.

Obama has dis-invited Wright from official functions, he's condemned the statements Wright made that have the right wing's panties in a wad and Wright has retired from Obama's church. What more do you want? Does Obama have to go TP the man's house live on Fox News? Spit in his face during a very special episode of 30 Rock?

Go ahead, Urkel. Explain to me how "vehemently disagree and strongly condemn" means "agree with and support" and how dis-inviting someone is "clinging to" them.

It really doesn't matter how many times Obama disavows and condemns Wright. Obama could kill Rev. Wright by stabbing him through the heart with a giant cross, offer it up as a sacrifice to God, and mount Wright's head on the front of the Campaign bus and the GOP would still whine about some sort of "connection": "I heard Obama hooked the head up to a life-support system so Rev. Wright can still give campaign advice on how to kill Whitey. See, 'Wright' really means 'White', so by killing Rev. Wright he's showing how he's going to put all the white people in camps as soon as he's elected. 9/11 9/11 bin Laden 9/11."

...they sleep better at night knowing if one of his cousins breaks in the door they can defend themselves.

Who's cousins? Obama's cousins? Are you claiming that Obama's family is a bunch of criminals/ Or do you mean that all African Americans are criminals? Your sheet is showing.

-=Logan
Research, facts, a Republican needs not these things

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Re: Your Sheet Is Showing

Steve Urkel.

Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:13:29 PM EST

4.50 (astute, obnoxious)

Read your own quote, Obama has never disavowed Wright, nor explained why nothing about Wright bothered him until it became a campaign issue, he just made the phony disavowal of anything Wright says that might upset people, without being specific. This intentional. He disavows Wright for his white audience, while still allowing blacks to believe he agrees with Wright that AIDS was invented by the government and that OJ Simpson was framed.

"What more do you want?"

How about some honesty, and like I said above, how about some specifics? He's been dishonest about not knowing about Wright's controversial side. Why did Obama have a close personal relationship with someone who he surely must have known had these extreme views?

It would also be nice to see Obama drop his double standards. For example, Obama demanded Trent Lott resign, merely because Lott made a joke at Strom Thurmonds birthday party. No one thinks Lott is a segregationist, but Obama had no problem attributing Thurmonds past views to Lott. Why shouldn't Obama be held to a standard approaching one he holds other people? Note that Thurmond was not a close personal friend of Lott, neither was he Lott's "spiritual mentor".

"Or do you mean that all African Americans are criminals? "

The cousin thing was a joke. If it offended you, I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn statements I make which are offensive. Now it's all better.

But it's true whites and blacks have different views on gun ownership, stemming from the high rate of black criminality.

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50% wrong

profwhat.

Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 07:24:58 AM EST

none

Clings to? Obama has repeatedly and publicly disavowed Wright and his comments.

You are 50% wrong.  From Obama's famous "race speech":

And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Rev. Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children.

Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions -- the good and the bad -- of the community that he has served diligently for so many years.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother . . .

So yeah, "cling" is pretty accurate.

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Re: 50% wrong

JimmyHavok.

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:58:16 AM EST

4.50 (interesting, astute)

"cling" is pretty accurate.

If by "cling" you mean "refuse to disavow a friend for political benefit."

6

Time out.

pO157.

Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 04:18:45 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

Hypothetically speaking, why does Obama consider it to be such a bad thing to be a one issue voter? If so, where is the outrage over Hispanics flocking to whatever party will liberalize immigration laws or grant the most amnesty? Following his logic, isn't he just pandering to a single issue voter bloc by offering illegals drivers licenses, amnesty and citizenship?

People have always voted for their self interest instead of the country.

3

Obama's Defense

port1080.

Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:38:20 PM EST

none

Here's the text of it, with some emphasis added by me:

"When I go around and I talk to people there is frustration and there is anger and there is bitterness. And what's worse is when people are expressing their anger then politicians try to say what are you angry about? This just happened - I want to make a point here today.

"I was in San Francisco talking to a group at a fundraiser and somebody asked how're you going to get votes in Pennsylvania? What's going on there? We hear that's its hard for some working class people to get behind you're campaign. I said, "Well look, they're frustrated and for good reason. Because for the last 25 years they've seen jobs shipped overseas. They've seen their economies collapse. They have lost their jobs. They have lost their pensions. They have lost their healthcare.

"And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we're going to make your community better. We're going to make it right and nothing ever happens. And of course they're bitter. Of course they're frustrated. You would be too. In fact many of you are. Because the same thing has happened here in Indiana. The same thing happened across the border in Decatur. The same thing has happened all across the country. Nobody is looking out for you. Nobody is thinking about you. And so people end up- they don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody's going to help them. So people end up, you know, voting on issues like guns, and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. And they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and things they can count on. But they don't believe they can count on Washington. So I made this statement-- so, here's what rich. Senator Clinton says `No, I don't think that people are bitter in Pennsylvania. You know, I think Barack's being condescending.' John McCain says, `Oh, how could he say that? How could he say people are bitter? You know, he's obviously out of touch with people.'

"Out of touch? Out of touch? I mean, John McCain--it took him three tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he's saying I'm out of touch? Senator Clinton voted for a credit card-sponsored bankruptcy bill that made it harder for people to get out of debt after taking money from the financial services companies, and she says I'm out of touch? No, I'm in touch. I know exactly what's going on. I know what's going on in Pennsylvania. I know what's going on in Indiana. I know what's going on in Illinois. People are fed-up. They're angry and they're frustrated and they're bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that's why I'm running for President of the United States of America."

The part I highlighted in bold is probably the best defense of this he could have made, so I give him props for that. Still, when you read his original statement, I think it's a pretty big stretch to get what I highlighted in bold from his original statement. I think the original statement definitely exposes, at the very least, a relatively strong anti-gun sentiment and certainly an amount of condescension towards religion (and for that matter, so does his defense - does he not believe that some people so strongly hold their religions beliefs that they will vote against their economic interests, regardless?).

5

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Re: Obama's Defense

Steve Urkel.

Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 03:11:29 PM EST

none

I can't believe his defense was to repeat his condescending and insulting remarks. He's magnified his intial blunder.

"They vote on issues like gay marriage"

Before condemning ordinary people who overwhelmingly oppose gay marriage for being irrational, the political geniuses who run the Democrat party should be forced to explain how its rational to lose Presidential elections because of that issue, even though only a tiny number of people are interested in being gay married.

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Re: Obama's Defense

DEMachina.

Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:57:40 PM EST

none

I'm not sure how you get a condemnation of religious people as irrational out of that statement.  He said people vote based on the things they think politicians will actually change.

Besides, what's wrong with someone condemning anti-homosexual sentiment for the bigotry that it is?

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

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Re: Obama's Defense

Steve Urkel.

Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:41:38 PM EST

none

He said people "cling" to certain values, and therefore vote against economic policies which he, and Democrats, thinks would make them better off. Assuming this were true, if he really wanted to help these people, and if these policies were really so important, why doesn't he, and Democrats, stop clinging to certain values that are only supported by a tiny minority? And it's not ant-homosexual sentiment to oppose gay marriage.

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Re: Obama's Defense

DEMachina.

Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:34:40 PM EST

none

Assuming this were true, if he really wanted to help these people, and if these policies were really so important, why doesn't he, and Democrats, stop clinging to certain values that are only supported by a tiny minority?

So wait...in order to stop people from voting against their economic interest, Democrats should stop acting in people's economic interest?  Huh?

And it's not ant-homosexual sentiment to oppose gay marriage.

Yes it is.  They want to deny certain people rights (and marriage is a right in the United States according to the Supreme Court) based solely on a particular innate attribute.  That is the very definition of prejudice.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

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Re: Obama's Defense

Steve Urkel.

Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:00:39 PM EST

none

I was pointing out that Democrats who argue that people in small towns should put values aside and vote for Democrats should consider putting their values aside, particularly really unpopular ones like gay marriage, in order to appeal to these voters.  

"They want to deny certain people rights (and marriage is a right in the United States according to the Supreme Court) based solely on a particular innate attribute"

Marriage laws weren't written with homosexuals in mind.

I've gone round and round on the subject before...

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Re: Obama's Defense

DEMachina.

Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 06:49:10 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

I was pointing out that Democrats who argue that people in small towns should put values aside and vote for Democrats should consider putting their values aside, particularly really unpopular ones like gay marriage, in order to appeal to these voters.

Ok, that makes sense.  The problem though is that people are much harder on Democrats, it seems, when it comes to changing their positions in order to get elected.  People have been all over Clinton for changing her stance on things, but hardly anyone batted an eyelash when McCain changed his position on whether or not the gov't should help individuals affected by the mortgage crisis instead of just big businesses.

Marriage laws weren't written with homosexuals in mind.

They weren't written with interracial couples in mind, either.  The fact remains that marriage is a right that is being denied people because of an attribute over which they've no more control than their race.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

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Re: Obama's Defense

Steve Urkel.

Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:59:19 PM EST

none

McCain has made remarks about the motivations of those that oppose immigration similar to Obama's. Those on the right certainly noticed them.

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