Religion

World Spiritual Leader or Terrorist Devil?

thefadd.

Posted to Religion on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:37:00 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

The Dalai Lama, world spiritual leader and head of Tibet's government-in-exile has promised to quit if his people continue to resort to violence in their effort to free themselves from Chinese government oppression.

Given his place in world society as a symbol of peace, accusations by every day Chinese that the Dalai Lama is a terrorist and devil have come as something of a revelation to those outside China. The credibility lost has not been The Dalai Lama's, however.

With its crowning jewel of an image make-over, the 2008 Summer Olympic games approaching, China is suddenly facing a great deal of scrutiny over the Tibet issue. In fact, the International Olympic Committee has barely concealed its disappointment in China's handling of the situation.

Despite the headlines his people's actions have brought to the situation, however, The Dalai Lama remains committed to peace as the way--not more violence as a way to peace. Have you ever looked to The Dalai Lama for spiritual, religious or other guidance? Does his break from the actions of his people make him a less influential figure--possibly one out of touch with the immediacy of his people's problems.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by thefadd, China, Tibet, spiritual leader, Dalai Lama (all tags)

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6

Re: World Spiritual Leader or Terrorist Devil?

Laputan Machine.

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:19:14 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I used to think non-violence was a cool idea, but then I took a Philosophy of Law class. In that class, we were taught that all law is only law if it is backed up by violent force. I still consider Dr. King a big hero, but he didn't see non-violence the same way as the Dalai Lama sees it, from what I can tell. Dr. King believed non-violence was a good political tactic that needed to be used as much as possible. But he never opposed violence entirely (for example, he carried a gun on him during some marches), which is what the Dalai Lama seems to be about.

I think a lot of people sympathize with the Tibetan cause not because they actually like them, but because they represent a kind of anti-industrial pro-hippie image for the Left, and an anti-China image for the Right. For some on the Left, Tibetans are like a Chinese version of American black people. For the Right, they're just a useful topic to bash China with. For both sides of the coin, there's a kind of feeling that Tibetans are a non-entity on the global political scene, and thus can be defended without any risk that they'll some day pose a threat in any sense.

 I also think the Olympics vs human rights stories are very odd, as it seems to imply that the Olympics should not be hosted in about 70% of the world's countries. If China's human rights situation is too bad to be a good host for the Olympics, does this mean most of Africa and South America are off limits, too?  And why the criticism of the host, and not the participants? Many countries have horrific murder rates, like Jamaica and Haiti, far higher than what we see in China, and high murder rates usually indicate a corrupt government incapable of maintaining public safety. Should we ban Jamaica and Haiti from the Olympics? If not, why not? Is Rwanda participating in the Olympics, even while certain European countries are accusing their leaders of war crimes and genocide?

At the end of the day I think Tibet should be given more freedom, but I also think polygamy should be legalized in the US and elsewhere, too. I really dunno why my latter position is so unpopular and the former is so popular though..

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Re: World Spiritual Leader or Terrorist Devil?

pO157.

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:04:38 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

I used to think non-violence was a cool idea, but then I took a Philosophy of Law class. In that class, we were taught that all law is only law if it is backed up by violent force. I still consider Dr. King a big hero, but he didn't see non-violence the same way as the Dalai Lama sees it, from what I can tell. Dr. King believed non-violence was a good political tactic that needed to be used as much as possible. But he never opposed violence entirely (for example, he carried a gun on him during some marches), which is what the Dalai Lama seems to be about.

But even The Dalai Lama recognizes the right to use violence in self defense, at least in an individual sense.

 I also think the Olympics vs human rights stories are very odd, as it seems to imply that the Olympics should not be hosted in about 70% of the world's countries. If China's human rights situation is too bad to be a good host for the Olympics, does this mean most of Africa and South America are off limits, too?  And why the criticism of the host, and not the participants? Many countries have horrific murder rates, like Jamaica and Haiti, far higher than what we see in China, and high murder rates usually indicate a corrupt government incapable of maintaining public safety. Should we ban Jamaica and Haiti from the Olympics? If not, why not? Is Rwanda participating in the Olympics, even while certain European countries are accusing their leaders of war crimes and genocide?

It is true, that you would imagine many countries could not host the Olympics. The United States would have a legitimate shot of getting DQ'd as well what with the shenanigans at Gitmo and in Iraq (although I imagine the loss of internal civil liberties here pales in comparison to China).

However, I don't think individual participants should be banned. There is a big difference between allowing a delegation to compete versus hosting. Hosting brings national prestige, money, commerce and trade. Why else would nations compete for the honor? By allowing athletes to travel and compete you are not necessarily condoning the actions of their home country -- no money is being spent inside the regime in question and in fact you are helping build international dialogue. Think of it like the UN -- many countries may have a problem in the past with Libya, but they didn't expel that regime's delegation from the UN. They still got the chance to communicate and be a part of the world stage, but without the endorsement that comes from any major leadership roles.

I think the Olympics actually have a decent chance of embarrassing China if protests get out of hand or journalists get access to domestic dissidents. I really question what they were thinking when they decided to go for the hosting bid.

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Re: World Spiritual Leader or Terrorist Devil?

arromdee.

Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:22:37 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

You would think absolute power would corrupt horribly. I could not imagine picking a 4 year old kid here in the States, telling them they were the reincarnation of the last President and somehow avoiding that child getting drunk with power.

I have a hard time thinking of anything that a drunk-with-power Lama could actually do, considering that China controls his country.  Perhaps he simply has lack of opportunity?  Remember that he wants to create a religious dictatorship, not a modern democracy.

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Re: World Spiritual Leader or Terrorist Devil?

pO157.

Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:11:56 AM EST

none

I have a hard time thinking of anything that a drunk-with-power Lama could actually do, considering that China controls his country.  Perhaps he simply has lack of opportunity?  Remember that he wants to create a religious dictatorship, not a modern democracy.

Sure, he might not be able to act as a head of government to use force directly against China, but he could make their life.... interesting. Here are a few off the top of my head (in increasing order of severity):

  1. Encourage a general boycott of the Olympic games. He has enough western support that it would cut somewhat into their profit margins, or at least cause the Chinese to lose face which I believe is a big thing for them.

  2. Make an announcement to the people back home to start a general strike against the Chinese until autonomy is granted. Compare such a move to the non-violent protests of Dr. King or Ghandi against unjust laws and colonization.

  3. Encourage armed resistance and sabotage to Chinese rule. Begin collecting donations abroad (much like Sinn Fein did for the IRA) to support partisans at home.

Sure, #3 is unlikely given his previous stance on peace and non-violent opposition to China. But, #1 and #2? I have to tell you, for a guy who is serving as a head of a government in exile and has a once in a lifetime chance to embarrass the occupiers he sure is being a lot nicer than he has to be.

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Re: World Spiritual Leader or Terrorist Devil?

pO157.

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:21:39 PM EST

none

I had the pleasure of being in a stadium where His Holiness spoke. I could hardly imagine the Head of State of any other country being so peaceful and non-confrontational while leading a government-in-exile. He is extremely intelligent, peaceful and has a wonderful caring personality. I thought it quite unexpected, given the fact (if you don't believe in a Higher Power[tm]) he was selected to be a the Lama and was raised like a king throughout his early years. You would think absolute power would corrupt horribly. I could not imagine picking a 4 year old kid here in the States, telling them they were the reincarnation of the last President and somehow avoiding that child getting drunk with power.  Even after getting dissed repeatedly by world leaders and heads of major religions he seems to never have anything bad to say about anybody.

What I remembered the most about when His Holiness spoke was the throngs of ChiComms (transplanted into the US or here for study) protesting loudly. IIRC, they were waiving around signs that were quite angry and contained quotes of his that were blatantly out of context or factually wrong.  I could understand how an entire country locked behind a giant internet firewall and exposed to a healthy dose of nationalism could be ignorant but I expected better out of people who had been in a world where there was freer flow of information and the ability to look things up before going out in public and shouting the line of the Great Honorable Most Joyous Lucky #7 Dragon Prosperous Party of the People's Paradise.

The guy is a hero along the lines of Dr. King or Ghandi and a very wise man.

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Big hitter, the Lama

Steve Urkel.

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:34:29 PM EST

4.00 (interesting, interesting)

I can't take someone who claims to be the reincarnation of someone else seriously, but I do hope something is learned by the Chinese reaction to his appearances. We think everyone is as individualist as we are, but that's just  projection.  

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Can the Dalai Lama resign?

MayorBob.

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:39:19 PM EST

none

Perhaps demonstrating my basic ignorance of Tibetan Buddhism, but I thought the Dalai Lama was ordained by a higher power and, in order for a successor to be selected, the search has to begin years, perhaps decades, before the death of presiding Dalai Lama. I don't believe any Dalai Lama has ever "quit" being the spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhists. I'm aware that there have been Dalai Lamas who didn't claim a secular, ruling role over Tibetans, but that was very early in the history of the title. Perhaps, the current Dalai Lama is saying he will renounce whatever secular authority he enjoys as the head of the Tibetan government in exile. But I don't think he can quit.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Can the Dalai Lama resign?

pO157.

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:49:31 PM EST

none

Perhaps demonstrating my basic ignorance of Tibetan Buddhism, but I thought the Dalai Lama was ordained by a higher power and, in order for a successor to be selected, the search has to begin years, perhaps decades, before the death of presiding Dalai Lama.

Sure, the process started when the Dalai Lama picked the Panchen lama (the guy who selects the next Dalai Lama). However, it has been halted because the day after he was picked China "disappeared" him and his family making him the world's youngest political prisoner at age five.

Don't worry, they picked a replacement, party approved Panchen lama. They trot him out from time to time to give important sermons like the one on loyalty to the State.

"Defending the nation and working for the people is a solemn commitment Buddhism has made to the nation and society"

Of course, since China is becoming an economic and military power due to its sheer size their shenanigans become cheeky and fun. If this was some 3rd world African hellhole run by General Mumbuto or something pulling this crap everybody would be quick to point out that their shenanigans are cruel and tragic which really wouldn't make them shenanigans at all, really. At best evil shenanigans.

But because its China we're ready to take them to a restaurant with all the goofy shit on the walls and the mozzarella sticks. Disgusting, isn't it?

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Re: Can the Dalai Lama resign?

thefadd.

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:22:15 PM EST

none

I should have been more clear. He's threatened to quit as head of the government. That is a different position from his post as spiritual leader, about which you and pO are both correct.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

8

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Re: Can the Dalai Lama resign?

Shy Elf.

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:30:40 PM EST

none

Quitting as head of government means quitting as head of religion, since there's no separation of church and state.  As you point out, his post as the Dalai Lama isn't something that he can quit, since it's who he is at least if you believe he is the reincarnation of the previous leaders.  The government/religion would then be run by someone who was not the Dalai Lama.  This is normally the case for a short period after the death of the Dalai Lama, but I can't seem to find any case of it being run by anyone else other than the Dalai Lama or the Panchen Lama.

Presumably they've had to deal before with Dalai Lamas who refuse to believe that they're the Dalai Lama, at least when they're children.  The standard response would have to be "Yes, you are, you just don't remember it yet".  I would think he would remain viewed by most people as the Dalai Lama even if he said he wasn't.

Now I'm wondering if there was a Pope who said he didn't believe in God.

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Re: Can the Dalai Lama resign?

pO157.

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:26:22 PM EST

none

Doesn't Tibet have separate Heads of Government and Heads of State? They have a Prime Minister, so if the Lama quit they would still have a secular leader to push their cause.

Presumably they've had to deal before with Dalai Lamas who refuse to believe that they're the Dalai Lama, at least when they're children.  The standard response would have to be "Yes, you are, you just don't remember it yet".  I would think he would remain viewed by most people as the Dalai Lama even if he said he wasn't.

That would be wild. Really wild. What if you considered yourself a pretender but everybody else viewed you as the rightful owner of the throne? Wow.  

Now I'm wondering if there was a Pope who said he didn't believe in God.

With 265 popes, especially those who were certainly not up to it, and a crap load of shady characters, I am sure it has happened once or twice. Especially with those popes who abdicated, got the papacy as a gift from daddy then pulled a Grover Cleveland (x2!) and then quit to go retire to the country. You know they must have figured something out.

Personally I wonder about the effects stuff like this has on the higher-ups. Observing a pope or prophet or whoever day-to-day must make you question whether or not the dude is actually chosen by God. Then again I guess Catholics get a pass on that because he is always a Man unless speaking ex cathedra, IIRC.

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