that government employees are using their official positions for political indoctrination of children entrusted to their care.)

Ain't been much in a modern highschool, eh Z?

Trust me...I have met TONS of rightwing hawks who use their official positions to politically indoctrinate the children entrusted to their care.  For instance, you'd be amazed at how many of them slyly teach ID in the biology classroom.  And don't get me started about the the social studies teachers I have known.  

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

I have met TONS of rightwing hawks who use their official positions to politically indoctrinate the children entrusted to their care

Suppose for a moment that instead of leftists the teachers in question were religious fundamentalists who had cooked up a scheme to teach intelligent design in biology class.

Well, we could slather on some of that famous academic rigor.  If it doesn't pass mustard, then pitch it.  And leftist bogymen aside, perhaps this program doesn't have a basis in academic rigor (although a couple vaguely "butt out" op-ed comments from the AZ Republic doesn't mean there isn't academic rigor).  

After a quick glance, the RAZA program doesn't look that much different from many other school programs I have worked with.  I would need to see actual lesson plans.  As far as a state superintendent being rebuffed by a principal...I call bullshit.  In fact, until there's some evidence that the students are being taught to reject the gods of Abraham and accept CAMAZOTZ I call bullshit on the whole bill.

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

After a quick glance, the RAZA program doesn't look that much different from many other school programs I have worked with

If by "glorification" do you mean "teaching about"?  When did Mexico go communist?  What communist revolutionaries are being glorified here?  It looked to me that the problem with the curriculum was that it encouraged tribal chauvinism.

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

What communist revolutionaries are being glorified here?

It looked to me that the problem with the curriculum was that it encouraged tribal chauvinism

My linky thing must be broken.  Can you please point out where...anywhere...that this program glorifies Che and Fidel?

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

http://www.google.com

http://www.google.com

So, in other words...you don't know either.  I guess we'll have to take it on faith that Pierce knows best and has no agenda of his own.

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

So, in other words...you don't know either

"(They taught students) that the United States was and still is a fundamentally racist country in nature, whose interests are contrary to those of Mexican-American kids.

"Individuals in this (Ethnic Studies) department are vehemently anti-Western culture. They are vehemently opposed to the United States and its power. They are telling students they are victims and that they should be angry and rise up."

These quotes sound like they're coming from someone with an ax to grind.  Links dammit!

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

Well, I mean you can't really talk about the last 50 years of history in the Americas without mentioning the Cuban revolution.  

The trouble is, there are a goodly number of people out there who think that discussing someone like Che Guevara as anything other than an unqualified monster is tantamount to glorification, which it is not.  It's just not accurate or good academic practice to present such a tilted perspective.  

 I mean, simply pointing out that Cuba has a pretty decent health care system is enough to get someone jumping down on you with both feet for being a Commie.

I was also under the impression from the articles that the curriculum had a lot of focus on Mexico and Central America.  Guevara and Castro figure into that historical situation only tangentially, so it's hard to imagine that they are being lionized so thoroughly.  If they were, I think I'd have a problem with this curriculum on the basis of factual accuracy.  

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

Quick glance

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

Ok, I looked through the links again and looked for communist revolutionaries.  All I found was this:

The measure is at least partially a response to a controversy surrounding an ethnic-studies program in the Tucson Unified School District, which critics have said is unpatriotic and teaches revolution.

It's been that kind of day...I went to the grocery store and asked the clerk where the soap was when I was standing right in front of it.  I hate to bug you, but could point out the communist revolutionaries?

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

Well, then, do you think that glorifying communist revolutionaries should be considered a good educational practice? Do you think it's something that the legislature should ignore?

I guess I would have to see them first.  Barring that, can you tell me where I could find the soap?

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

It's in the soap dish, dummy.

So...if the soap in the dish...then the commies must be...under your bed?

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

No, they're in the Tucson schools. (Do try to keep up.)

Ok...I found the soap.  Can you provide a link that shows the commies in this program?

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

Suppose for a moment that instead of leftists the teachers in question were religious fundamentalists who had cooked up a scheme to teach intelligent design in biology class. Would you then say that there was no reason to legislatively dictate a curriculum for teaching biology based on science rather than superstition and ignorance?

Who's trying to limit free speech?

I don't think you read the same story I did.

I don't think you read the same story I did.

Apparently we didn't.  Perhaps you missed the part of the bill that also spoke of disallowing groups of black business students and native american from operating on campus.  Hey!  It's a twofer.  We'll limit free association, too.

Yes, yes...I know what you'll say.  "They can associate all they want as long as it's off campus and not using university funds".  But, is this the same given that there are probably other more "right thinking" college groups that will continue to get support?

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

I know what you'll say.  "They can associate all they want as long as it's off campus and not using university funds"

But, is this the same given that there are probably other more "right thinking" college groups that will continue to get support?

Well, I'm pretty sure the Campus Republicans will still get university support.  And yes, I know that this is now a "racial" group...although they are business class.

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

I meant "not" a racial group.

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

I'm pretty sure the Campus Republicans will still get university support.  And yes, I know that this is now a "racial" group

Should a state university have an office dedicated to providing "support services to white students"?

Well...if someone wanted to start a Irish-American, German-American, Bohemian-American (I'm lookin' at you Skeeter), Italian-American, etc, etc, campus group I would be fine with that.  Each one has a unique cultural background that should (IMO) be recognized.

Oh, but wait...you said white.

Then no.

But here's why.

As far as I can tell groups that support black business students, or native americans exist to help the members succeed in a world where they are the "other".  They want to make sure that they get their share of the pie.  Are they always right?  No.  Can they be obnoxious? Yes.

White Power, White Supremacist, historically "white" anything has a unfortunate history of trying to keep the pie all for themselves.

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

Who said anything about "White Power, White Supremacist"? I asked you if a university should have an office specifically tasked with providing "support services to white students." Do you automatically assume that every white person is a "White Supremacist?"

Do you automatically assume that every white person is a "White Supremacist?"

Let's make a deal...I'll try to accept that a jingoistic state legislator who wants to shut down groups that support non-whites is not at least a closet supremacist if you'll accept that not everyone who is critical of the government is a leftist, commie/maoist bent on fomenting a glorious communist/socialist/slightly left of centerist revolution.

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

...if you'll accept that not everyone who is critical of the government is a leftist, commie/maoist bent on fomenting a glorious communist/socialist/slightly left of centerist revolution

These people have all the free speech they want. They just can't promote their political agenda in public schools.

in a discussion about how jingoists want to limit free speech.

The "jingoists" (as you call them) want to stop the mandatory teaching of certain classes in government-run schools -- which is about as far from "free speech" as has ever been understood to be protected by the Constitution.

The "jingoists" (as you call them) want to stop the mandatory teaching

It is an elective program.

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

It is an elective program.

For the students, it's elective. For the school, not so much -- and the offense is having the class available in the first place.

Since we both agree that the program is optional for students I can't see how this is a problem anymore.  If the program has no value to either students or their parents, then no one will sign up for it...when no one signs up for it, the program will go away.  

Rather than enact "overly broad" legislation, perhaps the good senator should focus on educating his constituents on the evils this program promotes.  Then, the well informed consumers can make a rational choice.  Isn't that the way the free market should work?  

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

Isn't that the way the free market should work?

Again, I'll remind you that this isn't the free market, this is government fiat. Government fiat which is clearly used to promote illegal and unconstitutional aims just as clearly warrants legislative correction. The Raza program has exactly the same business being part of a school's curriculum as does a Ku Klux Klan elective -- which is to say, none.

And I say you're wrong, sir.  While not operating strictly on a profit/loss model, the availability of classes, especially the elective programs, is based on the demand for those classes.  Even with academic classes supply and demand plays a part.  Don't believe me?  Watch how fast the shit would hit the mortar board in a school filled with the college bound if for some reason the school cut 1, ONE chemistry class. (seen it...trust me).  Or even make cuts to the football program (seen it, god help me).

The Ku Klux Klan?  Are you serious?  No one...not one single person to whom I offered my heartfelt pleas for proof has offered anything more than a smartass  blank google link or just simply agreeing with Rep. Pierce and/or a sly editorial sans proof and/or unsubstantiated letters to the editor that them Mexicans and Indians are forcing our tender young children to worship Quetzalcoatl and kneel down to felate  Fidel Castro.  Are you part of some right wing cabal that has the proof that Raza=KKK but you've sworn on the alter of Alan Friedman not to share it?

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

Well, "La Raza" means "The Race," which would seem to have some prejudices inherent in it. IMHO, racial identity is something that can be helpful to lift the self-esteem of minorities in developing personal identity. Of course, self-esteem education has been debunked in many corners, so that's controversial enough in an of itself. The problem arises when minorities become majorities and attempt to then inflict the prejudices of racial identity. Personally, I don't think this point is a major concern because I don't see Mexicans become a majority over blacks, whites and asians. However, some people feel differently.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

Thank you for shedding a little light on this.  I took another look at the program and the full name of the program is:  Mexican American/Raza Studies.  It's probably splitting hairs but if the name of the program was The Race, then I might be more likely to agree with with Z et al.  I have trouble any "The" hanging around...THE way...THE one true god, etc.  As it reads, it looks more like Mexican American/Race Studies.  I can't say I'm more comfortable with this but it does seem less inflammatory then "The" Race.  Again, probably hair splitting.  As I said up thread, I would really need to see lesson plans to make a judgment.  That being said, I'm surprised some of the folks against this program haven't encouraged a high school student to take this course and sneak in a cell camera.  Then we'd really get to see these seditious bastards and their anti-American machinations.

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

No one...not one single person to whom I offered my heartfelt pleas for proof has offered anything more than a smartass  blank google link or just simply agreeing with Rep. Pierce and/or a sly editorial sans proof and/or unsubstantiated letters to the editor that them Mexicans and Indians are forcing our tender young children to worship Quetzalcoatl and kneel down to felate  Fidel Castro

The Ku Klux Klan?  Are you serious?

Have it your way. Here's a PDF link to a lesson plan from the Denver school system which teaches from the same reference materials as the Arizona Raza program. Note that 20% of the plan is devoted to "La Resistencia y El Corrido": "La Resistencia means "resistance to conquest" and El Corrido are oral histories in the form of poems or songs. Juan Cortina, Gregoria Cortez, Tiburcio Vasquez, Joaquin Murrieta are heroic historical figures and Las Gorras Blancas is a Mexican resistance group of New Mexicans".

A few quick searches in Wikipedia or elsewhere will establish that Tiburcio Vasquez and the others named were murderers and thieves, dedicated to lives of banditry and lawlessness in the American West. The elevation of them as folk heroes in a Raza program is therefore equivalent to to a "Glories of the Confederacy" class taught in the South elevating early KKK leaders (the Klan was an offshoot of the Confederate Army, after all) or Jesse James (a former Confederate scout) as prominent figures of Antebellum resistance. "Las Gorras Blancas" were a group of Mexicans who used violence and intimidation tactics to drive off American settlers from the Southwest. The gained their name from the white hoods they used to cover their heads while terrorizing farmers and ranchers. Sound familiar?

In other words, yes, I am completely serious in my Raza::KKK comparison.

Well, I looked up your boys...some colorful characters there.  Some of interesting points too.

Cortina was an officer in the Mexican army and yes, he did do outlaw-y things, but he also fought against the Confederacy during the American Civil War.

Cortez was imprisoned and later exonerated and conditionally pardoned. (By the way,  during the incident that started his whole adventure, the deputy shot first)

Vasquez was apparently a gold miner who's wife was gang raped by a gang of white miners and he was in turn whipped.  When he sought redress through the legal system he was told that he would lose because it was illegal for a Hispanic to testify against a white man in California.

Does this excuse them?  Who knows.  I don't live in a country that had a huge part of it taken away by violent conquest.  I am pretty sure however that if some foreign nation wrested New England away from the US by force, after years of struggle people might be singing the Ballad of Lou and Zyxwvutsr (he lived in New England for a time).  The song would tell of our two-fisted exploits fighting to bring lobsters, potatoes, and the Red Sox back into the US.

In short, sometimes things really do depend on one's point of view.  If the reports  about Salvadoran and Nicaraguan death squads during the 80s taught us nothing, they taught us that one man's terrorist is another man's founding father.

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

" I don't live in a country that had a huge part of it taken away by violent conquest"

Neither do these kids.

"sometimes things really do depend on one's point of view"

I thought these kids were Americans, why are they being taught the Mexican point of view?

Well said, Steve.  Americans should never be taught to approach anything except from the proper, American perspective.  Ever.

Which is why they're completely stumped when a Vietnamese refers to, "The American War."

Political propaganda isn't a "perspective".  Teaching a neutral view of the Mexican American war is one thing, dredging up obscure criminals and glorifying them as victims of racism to teach mexi-kids to feel like victims is something else entirely.

I don't live in a country that had a huge part of it taken away by violent conquest.

Uh, Lou?  Yeah, you do.  Ask the Amerindians about this.

Sorry about that.  I'm afraid that I can be as myopic as many of my fellow Americans.  What I should have said is I don't live in a country where large parts of it was wrested away from me.

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

Again, I'll remind you that this isn't the free market, this is government fiat. Government fiat which is clearly used to promote illegal and unconstitutional aims just as clearly warrants legislative correction.

Even if it's a legislative correction, it's overbroad and badly written and has clear markings of ideology rather than a legislation that is aimed at good education.

Come on: banning anything that is anti-American or not about democracy?  In other words, we really want American kids to become more ignorant.

So, does this ban teaching French?  Remember that ridiculous Freedom Fries legislative act?  Notice that this new act of stupidity is an amendment to a state Homeland Security legislation?

So, should American kids only be taught American history and not about any other history?  How will any teacher teach the World Wars?  Or the origins of America with the masses of immigrants who came over here from other countries, not all of them Western by any means.  And would it mean anti-American to teach children about the laws in America's history that specifically prohibited immigration from non-white nations?

A law that is so overbroad as to ban almost any historical knowledge except what is favorable to the U.S. is not a correction but stupidity.  There are other countries that have done it in order to hide their past historical shame, but isn't the U.S. supposed to be above such acts?  If this law passes, isn't it remarkably similar to Communist ideology?  Will children get little red, white, blue books to memorize?  

If this law passes by sheer ideology, it will show that the lawmakers didn't consider the students here.  Promoting such ignorance is a disservice to the taxpayers who are paying for a decent education for children, as well as a disservice to real democracy.

So, should American kids only be taught American history and not about any other history?

World Wars I & II:  We saved democracy's ass in Europe twice!  And those ungrateful Brits still haven't properly thanked us!

Origins of Mass Immigration: Once, lots of folks came here because we provided lots of freedom and opportunity.  But now we have less freedom and opportunity, and it's all because folks are still coming here...folks that ain't white!

All right.  Time for science class.  Take out your texts and begin reading chapter seven, titled,  When Jesus Walked With the Dinosaurs...

Since we both agree that the program is optional for students I can't see how this is a problem anymore

People ought to study the bible critically in a public school

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

Would you feel the same about a Bible study program in a public school?

If it was taught as history or literature, sure.  If was taught as a 'heaven vs. hell choose now' curriculum.  No.

And aside from a snide editorial and a couple of cranky letters to the editor I have yet to see something saying that Raza students are being taught to overthrow whitey.  If they were being taught that, then I'd be right with you.  Cuz...you know, I am whitey.  Sure, I'd like to see our government make room for everyone and maybe even evolve a bit, but I don't think that teaching revolution is a good thing in a classroom.  Even  here there is a subtle distinction though.  It's one thing to teach about revolutions...American, French, Cuban, etc...and then let people come to their  own conclusions and very much another to teach students how to revolt (as if kids weren't revolting enough).

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

At the end of the day, no matter what's going on in the classroom, there's simply no defending this law. Like I said in the subQ, if this law passed, they wouldn't be allowed to teach it because it's un-American. Hooray for secret laws not. Hi five!

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

What, exactly, about the bill is "un-American"?

Its overly-broad language would impinge upon a free exchange of ideas.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

Public schools are not in the business of free exchange of ideas - they're in the business of education.

Siddown son!  You don't want no critical thinking, looking a things from a different point of view or testing theories.  No sir!  You want an Education.

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist