Religion

For The Sake Of The Children.

MayorBob.

Posted to Religion on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:29:59 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

It all began as a search for a missing 16-year-old girl, allegedly a victim of sexual and physical abuse, at the ranch owned by a polygamist sect near San Angelo, Texas.  It soon developed into one of the largest child rescue operations conducted in the US with 462 children removed and separated from their mothers.  Texas state authorities said the conditions at the ranch were so horrific that there was no choice but to step in and separate the kids from their mothers.  Texas is moving out smartly to place all the children in foster homes.  But, it's a move which some have been decrying as cruel, not the least the mothers. It's also one some people are calling a "class-action child removal" leading to questions whether Texas authorities overplayed their hands.

The activities of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS Church) at the Yearning For Zion Ranch (YFZ Ranch) has been a matter of concern for over four years.  However when the sect's founder, Warren Jeffs, was convicted last year on rape charges and sent away to prison in Utah for ten years, interest in what was going on at YFZ Ranch picked up.  The charges came hot and heavy and were particularly lurid.  Of course, as a polygamist community, the FLDS Church had raised the hackles of most of the outside community.  The group was accused of forcing young women, under the age of consent, into forced marriages with older males in the church.  Thus, when a specific charge was brought about a crime committed against the missing 16-year-old -- and church elders at the ranch refused to cooperate -- Texas brought the hammer down.

It's the broadness of the reach of Texas which has critics asking questions.  One of them is the Texas chapter of the ACLU.  It's been following developments in San Angelo carefully and it believes the actions of the Texas Child Protective Services (CPS) raise "serious and difficult issues regarding the sometimes competing rights of children and their parents."  It is the contention of Texas CPS that "there was a systematic process going on to groom these young girls to become brides" and they had to act to prevent "possible future abuse" from occurring.  The thing that's troubling for the ACLU is that all the children (except for nursing infants) have been separated from their mothers.  That would include girls way below the age of consent (who weren't mentioned in any allegations of forced marriages).  It included children of church members who weren't living in polygamist arrangements.  It also included all the boys, who were never the subjects of any alleged abuse.

Jessica Dixon, a law professor and child abuse expert, is the one who called it a case of class-action child removal, something she's never heard of before.  A spokesman for the church says Texas' actions are saying "if you're a member of this religious group, then you're not allowed to have children."  Dixon says Texas has a "very low burden for removal of children from a parent's home, at least temporarily" but that the children should be reunited with their parents unless a "continuing and immediate danger to their safety" can be proven.  Darrell Azar, a CPS spokesperson said: "Removal is always the last option. In this case, there was no other choice."  Azar had no comment on why the children who weren't at risk are still in state custody. Lisa Graybill of the ACLU says "we condemn child abuse and we don't stand up for the perpetration of that (but) what the state has done has offended a pretty wide swath of the American people with what appears to be an overreaching action to sweep up all these children."

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by MayorBob, polygamy, child abuse, Texas, fundamentalists (all tags)

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2

reap the whirlwind

wetkarma.

Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 12:43:34 PM EST

5.00 (interesting, interesting)

So Joshv gets there way ahead of me -- Texas seems to have overreached wildly here.

However this didn't happen in a vacuum -- these folks and their kids are the very same ones who took Caesar's welfare gold. A core tenet of my belief re: government is that the moment you are spending other people's money, whether its for roads to your McMansion, stimulus packages for your farm or merely subsidies to have another baby - those people are going to want to have a say in controlling you.

The more government money you use, the more oversight you can expect.

These folks use a lot of government money (per capita) and as such I'm not at all surprised at the strong CPS oversight; if child welfare is spending $X per kid among these mormons, they are going to want to know far more about the kids welfare than if we're talking about a group of black kids in government projects.

Ah yes, and while I'm at it -- there is the race card as well. These aren't just any kids -- they are white kids. As such they have a premium value when it comes to news and government action.

If the mormon's really wanted to be left alone to raise their kids, they shouldn't have attached themselves to the government teat.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: reap the whirlwind

thefadd.

Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:47:18 PM EST

none

It's an interesting theoretical point but how much did receiving government funds really increase the spotlight on them in this particular case?

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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Re: reap the whirlwind

wetkarma.

Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 05:08:35 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

It's an interesting theoretical point but how much did receiving government funds really increase the spotlight on them in this particular case?

One of the conclusions that came out of the Waco/Branch Davidians assault by the ATF was that they did it for budget justification reasons. Search google for CPS and Budget and you'll see that the CPS has been complaining for years now that they are understaffed and underfunded.

Even if motives were pure as the driven snow, I'd wager a months paycheck that next years when Texas does their budget, CPS is going to get a hefty bump for all their work.

Signal event to watch for: Emergency funding allocation of Texas CPS based on the "extraordinary" demand on their services.

Separate but linked point: America has imported quite a few orthodox muslim families from Somalia and other regions  to the point where the number of muslims practicing polygamy approaches the number of FLDS members. Despite the poor reputation of muslims in America, I'd argue that muslim polygamists get a pass from the government because they aren't seeking welfare from the government.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: reap the whirlwind

PenitenziAgite.

Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:02:16 AM EST

5.00 (astute, astute)

Despite the poor reputation of muslims in America, I'd argue that muslim polygamists get a pass from the government because they aren't seeking welfare from the government.

Muslims have a pretty good reputation in America.  Generally, they are successful and law-abiding, and seldom get into trouble.  Considering all the shit they have had to put up with in this country since 9.11 especially.

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

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Re: rape the whirlwind

zyxwvutsr.

Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:20:55 PM EST

none

Muslims have a pretty good reputation in America
That's true. And that's why I'm voting for Obama bin Barrak.

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Re: rape the whirlwind

PenitenziAgite.

Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:16:12 PM EST

none

Well, tayyib, al hamdulillah for you.

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

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Re: For The Sake Of The Children.

ms sue.

Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:02:30 AM EST

5.00 (informative, informative)

9

Re: For The Sake Of The Children.

port1080.

Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:12:24 PM EST

3.66 (informative, informative)

"It also included all the boys, who were never the subjects of any alleged abuse."

Texas officials looking at possible abuse among FLDS boys

AUSTIN, Texas - Texas officials have told legislators they're looking at the possible sexual abuse of some young boys taken from the polygamist sect's ranch.

In a written update provided to lawmakers Wednesday, the state Child Protective Services division says it is looking into possible sexual abuse of boys based on interviews and journal entries.

The agency provided no other details.

Earlier, Commissioner Carey Cockerell -- in charge of the umbrella Department of Family and Protective Services -- told lawmakers 41 children have evidence of broken bones.

The disclosures are the first suggestions that anyone other than teen girls may have been physically or sexually abused. The state has custody of 464 children taking from the Yearning For Zion Ranch in the west Texas prairie town of Eldorado, including a baby born to a teen mother Tuesday.

There you go.

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There you go?

MayorBob.

Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:39:29 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

That reads like I should have known something. "It also included all the boys, who were never the subjects of any alleged abuse." At the time that was written in the write up it was correct. To quote the newspaper article: "The disclosures are the first suggestions that anyone other than teen girls may have been physically or sexually abused." Having said that, there had been allegations that young teenaged boys were being expelled from the ranch and forced to make it on their own; a situation I would characterize as abuse.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

11

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Re: There you go?

port1080.

Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:00:34 PM EST

none

It wasn't meant to be a criticism of your writeup at all - just more of a bit of general smart-assing on my part.  Neither you nor the ACLU had any reason to know at that point that these additional abuse charges would come up.

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Re: There you go?

thefadd.

Thu May 01, 2008 at 12:50:36 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

But these charges are completely baseless given the information provided to the public.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

1

Re: For The Sake Of The Children.

joshv.

Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:24:26 AM EST

none

I am no fan of religious cults, and consider some practices of even mainstream religions to be tantamount to child abuse (at least psychologically), but come on already.  Most of these kids appear to be well taken care of and are not suffering from any form of abuse.  If you can prove the law is being broken and a particular kid is being sexually abused or is at risk for abuse, well then remove that child or the perpetrator.

If the nature of the community is such that it makes it very difficult to prove these things, well, deal.  That's the law.  Work within the law to do what you can do to protect these children - but mass removal is not the answer.  

I really hate to defend religious whack-jobs, but they do have a right to their beliefs.  On the face of it this looks to be blatant religious persecution.

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Re: For The Sake Of The Children.

postillion.

Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:58:58 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Originally I was inclined to agree with you, joshv, and say that this should be a matter where we should separate out the religion and look at this without that context.  However, in reading futher about FLDS, there is real cause for legal concern for the children, both male and female.  Here are legal reasons why the children should be in foster care:

1) The parents, both mothers and fathers, are willing to endanger their children on the advice of a religious leader who is in prison for conspiring to rape a minor.  This endangerment includes allowing young male teenagers to be excommunicated from their religion and homes, leaving young male teenagers homeless, and allowing young female teenagers to be raped, married or to be sent across the border to Canada to be raped and married.

So, outside of religion, you have parents who are willing to allow their male children to become homeless teenagers and who go along with statutory rape of their teenage daughters, and possibly allowing their teenage daughters to be taken across borders for the purpose of statutory rape.

2) It seems possible that the children are not being educated.  Children are withdrawn from schools to be "homeschooled" and potentially not taught anything.  Of course, this would make them more compliant members of the religion.

So, again outside of the religious context, parents who aren't sending their kids to school nor homeschooling them adequately, therefore depriving the children of education and future opportunities in life.

3) As wetkarma points out, this is a religion that actively advocates that the illegal wives should bleed the state out of money for welfare.  Welfare fraud?

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Re: For The Sake Of The Children.

port1080.

Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 01:58:33 PM EST

none

It's funny to me that we have opposite views on both this and the NYC police shooting case. In the police shooting case you come down for the government, I against, and here you are against the government and I am for it. My justification for supporting the government here is that I believe that while the state is never justified in stopping individuals from doing whatever they want to themselves (i.e. if you want to neglect yourself to the point of causing personal injury, so be it), when it comes to other people I find state intervention more than justified. While it may be true that not all the children were subject to abuse, the fact remains that all evidence indicates that one of the central tenets of this "religion" was to groom young women to be brides and to force them into marriage. A free society cannot tolerate a religious culture that so pervasively enforces itself upon the choices of adults. In a conflict between freedom of religion and absolute individual freedom, individual freedom must always triumph. I don't see how it's logically possible to be free to give up your freedom of choice. Religions like Scientology and the many religions that practice shunning of one form or another (here's looking at you, Amish folks!) are bad enough, but there's generally a fundamental understanding of a freedom to leave in most of those cases, even if there are consequences vis-a-vis contact with the rest of the community. Also, recruitment focuses are often on adults, which at least have the initial freedom to choose whether to join or not. Here it seems that leaving wasn't much of a choice, and having children who were never given a choice about membership was the preferred means to "grow" the religion. Hence I think the state has a defensible obligation to remove all the children and at least give them some indication of what their rights are and will be as free citizens.

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Re: For The Sake Of The Children.

JimmyHavok.

Sat May 03, 2008 at 01:24:53 AM EST

none

Heard about this the other day on NPR:

switching IDs

CPS officials also accused sect members of deliberately thwarting their investigation by altering identifying wristbands and providing false information while the children and scores of adult women were housed in shelters the state set up in San Angelo.

"Women switched children and even their clothes and clothes of their children," Mr. Cockerell said. "When asked, women and children would change their names and ages."

According to CPS, they had tried to keep the children with their families, but the mothers were not cooperating in the effort.

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