Sport

Blood And Guts As Rites Of Passage -- Mixed Martial Arts For Kiddies

MayorBob.

Posted to Sport on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:57:52 PM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

This is a development which, I'm sure, will throw Steve Urkel into a tizzy.  It looks like the last bastion of cage matches for kiddies is about to be closed down.  Yes, if a bunch of panty-waisted, fuzzy-thinking, "let's think about the children" types have their way, Missouri will no longer be able to show you an underaged cage fighter.

Little boys want to grow up to be just like their sports heroes.  What's true for Little League and MLB is also true for mixed martial arts.  But, where's a young lad, under the age of 18 to go to apprentice for a future career as an ultimate fighter?  Missouri, is where and it's one of a few states that allows children, some as young as 10 or 12, to climb into a caged ring whilst heavily padded and slug and kick and body slam their opponent into unconsciousness.  Until an AP article reported on the sport and Matt Lauer introduced a report on The Today Show exposing and slamming the sport on national TV, few were aware of this aspect of growing up in Missouri.

Now, do-gooders like State Representative Bryan Stevenson (R - Webb City) want to put an end to things: "I think it borders on child abuse. I just don't think it's appropriate behavior at all."  Stevenson says he's never seen a caged fight but he's co-sponsoring a bill banning "any amateur or professional full-contact karate or mixed martial arts contest in which any contestant is less than eighteen years of age."  Of course, people like the Swinehart family (in the Today Show report) disagree, contending that the sport teaches the children "wonderful senses of self-discipline" and is key in keeping them in shape.

Nathan Orand, who owns a fighting studio in Oklahoma, concurs with the Swineharts.  Orand has been a supporter of the sport and says that people like Stevenson are misguided.  He said the kid version has safety rules and protective gear which make the sport "no more dangerous than more established children's sports such as wrestling."  As a sop to the overly sensitive crowd, Orand says he's taking down the cage around the ring.  Even though he believes the cage actually makes the matches safer, "it can look brutal at first glance."  Larry Swinehart agrees with Orand that if the sport is criminalized it will just be "driven underground" because it is so popular.  Stevenson says he would be interested in talking to Swinehart but medical doctors have informed him that some of the holds used in MMA can cause "permanent damage to young joints."  A medical doctor familiar with the sport, agrees that special care should be taken with young, growing bodies.  However, he contends the threat of permanent damage might be a bit overdone by the doctors talking to Stevenson.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by MayorBob, mixed martial arts, kids, cage matches, Missouri (all tags)

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1

This is stupid.

pO157.

Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:36:23 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

You may ask "Which group are you castigating? The lawmakers, or the parents who push their kids into this sport?"

Both.

Back when I was an EMT, our town used to host some regional martial arts competition, and seeing some of these younger kids and teenagers beat the snot out of each other was just... sketchy. But it was allowed and even encouraged as a legitimate sport despite the risk of broken bones, concussions (one kid we took the ER supposedly had half a dozen head injuries before). So, if society has no problem letting parents sign their kids up for sports where the object is to wrestle somebody into submission (honestly I don't want to know what the heck is going on here or here) or choke them out why is this Mixed Martial Arts program such a big problem?

In the absence of a compelling reason why this is so much worse than any other sport (to the point where the parents should be held criminally negligent for allowing their kids to participate) the law seems to be nothing more than a further expansion of the nanny state.

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Re: This is stupid.

port1080.

Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:22:19 PM EST

none

Indeed - I played high school football and we had some pretty nasty injuries, despite appropriate padding and whatnot. I only played for two years, but I saw some limbs bent at disturbingly unnatural angles (or, even more disturbingly, saw shin bones with a new "joint" in them...). I managed to get through reasonably uninjured (worst injury was probably a wrenched shoulder, although I came close to dislocating my knee once), but on a team of about 30 we had at least one or two player injured badly enough that they had to sit out the rest of the season, each year. No sport* is really injury free, other than maybe golf or bowling (and even there, you have people who manage to throw their backs out).

*I guess billiards and darts have pretty much no risk of injury as long as the implements of the game are used appropriately, but considering people are often rather drunk when playing said games, injuries persist nonetheless...

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Re: This is stupid.

pO157.

Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:38:09 AM EST

none

This isn't limited to the under-18 group. I have a cousin who is getting a ginormous academic scholarship to attend an Ivy. He signed up for their D-I wrestling team, because he enjoys it. I went to one meet and it made me... uncomfortable. I really didn't need to hear Coach McGurk standing on the edge of the mat for 45 minutes screaming "GRAB HIS CROTCH! GRAB HIS CROTCH!" Anywho, the point is he's on his 3rd operation and going to be (at a minimum) a Super Senior. Despite the fact that the school apparently isn't paying for his medical care or his extra tuition or housing when he was out due to his injuries he keeps doing it. Me? That's why I was president of the Chess Club in High School. Actually, not really. Mostly because it was the most ironic club in grades 9-12.

On a side note, golf really isn't risk free. I recently took it up and was invited to play at a really swanky course that needs new blood after all the rich executives left when the film industry dried up. The guy I was playing with told me when he was once there they had all these TV cameras because the day before lightning came down out of a cloudless sky and fried 3 or 5 people in one group. Now there is a memorial at the spot they died. Plus, remember the latest PGA tour? Not only did they have alligators on the course, but they also had killer bee attacks!

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Re: This is stupid.

Steve Urkel.

Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:20:55 PM EST

none

I'm not a big fan of pushing really young kids into any organized sport. As far as martial arts goes, if you are going to have 10 year olds doing it I think it's safer for kids to stick with grappling based ones only until they are in high school.

Speaking of dangerous sports, I read the other day that high school pole vaulting averages about one death per year. There can't be that many youth pole vaulters (or is there more than you would think?), so it must be one of the most dangerous sports for young people.

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Re: This is stupid.

pO157.

Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:30:51 PM EST

none

Speaking of dangerous sports, I read the other day that high school pole vaulting averages about one death per year. There can't be that many youth pole vaulters (or is there more than you would think?), so it must be one of the most dangerous sports for young people.

I'd say Javelin. In high school a kid a town or two over caught one in the head. He survived, I think. But the x-ray looked awesome. Any who, I was told that was the impetus for High School Javelin not being included in the field games afterwards.

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More sportdanger!

Steve Urkel.

Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:10:02 PM EST

none

Equestrian is dangerous, too.

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Re: More sportdanger!

pO157.

Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:54:13 PM EST

none

As is Polo, probably. I always wanted to play it as a kid. But I read a website on the sport recently where they prominently listed the average income of those who participate in it.

I'll pass.

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Re: More sportdanger!

JimmyHavok.

Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:14:59 PM EST

4.00 (informative, interesting)

If you're good at polo, you don't need money.  My friend's father had two lines of work: marrying rich, and playing polo.  He was good enough that one of the members of a team that wanted him would give him a do-nothing job for being on the team.

Of course, getting that good involves some money...that's where the marrying rich part comes in.

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Re: More sportdanger!

thefadd.

Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:37:58 PM EST

none

Try buzkashi. Just like polo but for the (Afghan) masses!

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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Re: This is stupid.

Acefantastik.

Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:08:51 PM EST

none

There can't be that many youth pole vaulters (or is there more than you would think?),

Pretty much every high school track team has a pole-vaulter or 7.   A list for you:
1. The beefcake who works his pecs all the time and flexes in front of the mirror before bed.  
2. The skinny fast kid who has enough technique to clear the bar at low heights.  

For some reason, most teams have willing volunteers to do this.  I imagine that most of the deaths come to falling awkwardly on the head, with about a less than one percent incidence of faulty equipment.  

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Re: This is stupid.

Steve Urkel.

Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:15:53 PM EST

none

That's an accurate description of the average high school pole vaulter. Even if every high school has a couple, it's still not that many. Even without danger consideratins a lot of schools when I was in high school didn't have it because of the pointlessness of having and setting up the equipment when only 3 people are doing it. I can remember our high schools vaulter (a skinny fast kid with barely enough technique to clear the bar at low heights) winning most of the time by default.

2

Irvin Mainway Lives!

MayorBob.

Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:58:17 PM EST

5.00 (astute, astute)

At least his spirit lives on in Nathan Orand, organizing ultimate fighting leagues for toddlers instead of shilling "Big Bag O' Glass" on SNL.  Looking at that video from the Today Show was quite the thing.  Actually, it didn't look that much worse than two kids duking it out on the playground, only these kids had padding on.  But, whoa Nelly, when that one kid picked the other up and was set to piledrive his head into the mat at the end of it, that does give one pause to question what the fuck these parents were thinking.

Yeah, I know kids can get hurt playing pick up games or skateboarding.  They can even get hurt playing Pee Wee football or Little League.  But the idea behind those sports are a bit different that MMA -- the stated purpose of which is to deliver a pummelling to your opponent until he is totally battered and unable to continue.  And added bonuses to fighters who can inflict a KO on their opponents.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Irvin Mainway Lives!

T Slothrop.

Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:17:14 PM EST

none

I know this comment is a couple of days old so no one is likely to see it, but if yer gonna talk about Mr. Mainway, you gotta talk about his highest achievement: the "Johnny Human Torch" Halloween costume - oily rags and a butane lighter.

Hours... errr minutes of fun for the whole family!!

{Insert amusing quotation here}

4

Sweet Science?

HidingFromGoro.

Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:29:14 AM EST

5.00 (informative, informative, informative)

No mention of boxing by the Missouri people.  I'd be more concerned with Golden Gloves type programs if I was really worried about dangerous sports.  I used to box, and now do shootwrestling (similar to MMA, or no-gi with some MT and boxing) and there are some minor injuries here and there but nothing like the cumulative effects of repeated blows to the head and jaw common in boxing.  Boxing's heavy gloves offer much more protection to the hand, and the nature of the sport is even more conducive to "pummeling" and KO's than submission-oriented sports like MMA.  

That's why I switched- I'm getting too old to get hit in the face all night.  Getting smacked when rolling on the mat, when the other player is using his whole body jockeying for position and also actively preventing me from jockeying for position still stings, but it's nothing like boxing when my opponent is firmly rooted and turning his whole body into hard hooks to my dome.  Plus, when you're subbed, you know it ahead of time- it's a gradual application of the technique (in many cases you know what's coming based on your position and inability to get out of it before the technique is even applied); so you tap out, congratulate the other player, and get back to rolling.  The pain threshold is lower than the "fucked up for life" threshold.  In boxing, you don't know which punch is going to knock you out until you wake up.  You also don't know which one is going to give you TMJ; just like you don't know which cigarette is going to give you cancer.  There's a reason guys get "punch drunk" but not "kimura drunk."

MMA is so popular precisely because it looks more brutal than it is.  Sure there are the bloody faces here and there, and the sport is designed to foster that (ie elbows to downed athlete) because that's what sells pay per view.  UFC was able to buy out PRIDE because nobody in the US watches PRIDE- just like they didn't watch UFC when it first came out, big deal, "karoddy" guys and some judo guys in a ring who cares; was the mentality.  The fence and octagon and such were introduced to sex it up so people would tune in, and it worked.  The fact that it got politicians calling it "human cockfighting" [Juan McCain] and trying to ban it was an intentional side-effect and the absolute best advertising money could buy.

With proper supervision and instruction, and some reasonable precautions (ie no heel hooks during rolling, etc); kids are just as safe practicing MMA as they are in the boxing gym or on the football field.  There are plenty of rules in UFC designed for fighter safety (ie no soccer kicks to downed athlete, although they're allowed in PRIDE and nobody's been Reeve'd by one), and there's an etiquette in any MMA or shootwrestling gym that exists to prevent injuries- just like there are "rules" and etiquette in weight rooms and on the basketball court to prevent injuries.

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Re: Sweet Science?

JimmyHavok.

Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:19:45 PM EST

none

Thanks for the first-person account, I'd just googled up "youth boxing" for the same purpose.

5

Self Defense

HidingFromGoro.

Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:57:02 AM EST

5.00 (interesting, interesting, astute)

Another thing I forgot to mention is that MMA gyms can actually be better for kids than your run-of-the-mill strip mall karate class, because there is no focus on bullshit "self-defense" secnarios.  I've trained in my fair share of strip-mall belt mills, and visited countless others; and it never ceases to amaze me to see these people teaching kids to take guns or knives away from attackers.  Of course now, with MMA being popular, the same Kenpo doughboy that was touting his school as "reality-based self defense" during the Krav Maga craze of the 90's now has "mixed martial arts" on his shingle.  But it's still the same stuff- practice these katas in front of a mirror and do pre-arranged stuff against a stationary opponent and you're ready for The Street®!  Not that I have anything against katas or traditional martial arts (in fact my respect for them in their proper context tends to get me shouted down on martial arts boards, because these days everybody is a billy-badass cage fighter just like they were Krav Maga special forces billy-badasses 10 years ago and aikido master billy-badasses 5 years before that).

I still think it's a bad idea to teach middle-schoolers to take knives away from people, or housewives to take knives away from people; because in addition to getting them killed if something like were ever to happen in their suburban enclaves, I think it makes them less likely to avoid conflicts.  I think MMA style gyms are better for kids because it gives them a competitve outlet and teaches them to think of it like a sport; and not something that is going to give them an upper hand against a gun-wielding crackhead at the ATM.  They get to impose their will on others in a controlled environment without repercussions (this is also why police/military frequent MMA gyms, not because they think they will use it on the battlefield).

I'm a parent, and should my kid choose a martial arts school or an MMA gym, I'll definitely let him- it's probably safer than playing pickup football after all.  But I won't let him delude himself into thinking a colored belt is going to make him into Batman or something.  For self defense a gun is the more often than not the only answer; and in the case of a brawl, I'd much rather him be used to taking a punch and going all out against a resisting adversary than relying on some stilted Ed Parker stuff.  By turning fighting into a sport, and giving him an outlet to impose his will on other fully resisting people, I believe he'll be less likely to get into fights- and be able to spend that much more time on learning how to recognize and avoid situations that might result in one.

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Re: Self Defense

JimmyHavok.

Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:21:34 PM EST

none

I was kind of dismissive of kata until I noticed that I was using the moves in sparring without thinking about it.

17

Somewhere in a prison near you

Lou.

Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:59:09 PM EST

4.75 (funny, funny, astute)

Michael Vick sits pondering his fate.  He thinks...my football career is over...they took my kennel away.  What will I do?

Suddenly, his eye falls on a magazine on a table in the day room.  What's this?  Children Involved in Ultimate Fighting?  Hmmm...kids fighting in cages?  Tough little buggers.  I wonder if the wee tots need a physical trainer....hmmmm, Bad Boyz Camp has a nice ring.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

18

Re: Blood And Guts As Rites Of Passage -- Mixed Ma

DEMachina.

Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:40:44 AM EST

4.00 (astute)

I agree that it's stupid to single this sport out because of possible injury (as people have mentioned, football et. al. are probably almost as bad).

I worry more about kids thinking they can fight when they can't necessarily.  The martial arts used (such as they are) in these types of competitions are all well and good when you're as strong or stronger than your opponent, but when you get someone bigger than you it starts to become problematic.  It takes serious skill and, as cliché as it is, discipline to be able to handle someone bigger than you.  I consider myself a competent martial artist, but it's unlikely I would prevail against a real cage fighter; not because their kung fu is better, so to speak, but because they're much stronger than I am.  So if a 12-year-old is pretty good size for his age and can whoop up on other 12-year-olds, what happens when he gets pissed at and decides to start something with an 18-year-old who has 80 pounds on him?  There are people out there who can handle themselves against someone three times stronger or whatever, but that takes an immense amount of skill and practice.

I knew a kid back in the day who did tae kwon do and was probably pretty good, at least in a tournament setting (more on that in a moment).  The problem is this gave him inflated confidence and he was much quicker to start something physical than most people are.  This became a problem sometimes; I think I was a couple years older (maybe), but I definitely had a longer reach and was just generally bigger.  We never got into a full-on fight or anything, but the little we did do did not go in his favor.

The other problem with this is it's dangerous, I think, to teach kids to fight within a tournament setting without a very clear understanding of what that does.  If one of them really does have to defend themselves, they're going to be limited by what the tournament rules say you can and can't do.  So it takes a serious level of self-control to be able to separate the cage from a real-life fight, and I wouldn't ascribe that to most kids.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

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Re: Blood And Guts As Rites Of Passage -- Mixed Ma

JimmyHavok.

Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:10:54 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

what happens when he gets pissed at and decides to start something with an 18-year-old who has 80 pounds on him?  

He deserves the same thing he would get if he didn't have MMA training: a little punching around.

I'd say some of the value lies in what happens if someone with 80 lbs on him starts something.  MMA should give him some defensive skills to protect himself and limit the amount of damage he takes.

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Re: Blood And Guts As Rites Of Passage -- Mixed Ma

thefadd.

Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:53:12 PM EST

none

If one of them really does have to defend themselves, they're going to be limited by what the tournament rules say you can and can't do. So it takes a serious level of self-control to be able to separate the cage from a real-life fight, and I wouldn't ascribe that to most kids.

I think that's your best point right there. Sport fighting and street fighting are two wholly different worlds. I know this guy, never any formal training in his life and probably wouldn't stand a chance in a cage match. But he's big and only knows how to end physical encounters and end them fast.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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Re: Blood And Guts As Rites Of Passage -- Mixed Ma

HidingFromGoro.

Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 03:44:47 AM EST

none

I worry more about kids thinking they can fight when they can't necessarily.

Again, having done both MMA-type sports and traditional martial arts for a number of years, I still think having the kid doing submission fighting is a solution to this problem.  MMA treats fighting like a sport, it deals with concepts like strength training and weight classes, instead of the notions that the nerdy kid or the housewife can finally beat up the bullies with secret techniques of the Orient handed down from on high from the grandmaster.  I have a lot more faith in a kid that understands weight classes not going after someone too big for him than a traditional martial-arts kid who is taught that "size doesn't matter," that he can take out the bigger boy with a flying kick or something that he's never trained outside of point-sparring or prearranged scenarios.  Plus, they'll get experience in going all out against bigger kids and will develop the proper respect for a physically superior opponent; unlike 99% of traditional martial arts.  The only thing MMA type schools lack is weapons training, although if you're prepping your kid to be a knife fighter you're probably past the point of no return, as far as your kid's athletic development (might also want to reconsider which school district you're sending him to ;) ).  

If sending your kid to a shootwrestling gym is irresponsible because he might get in a fight and lose; then sending him to learn how to take a gun or knife away from someone at the kung fu* school is criminally insane.

Moreover, it treats the sport like, well... a sport, a game athletes play with each other instead of a deadly art geared toward street survival like the Krav Maga* schools do.  Everything is geared toward getting in shape and training for a competition; you won't see this stuff about taking a gun away from someone or "rape prevention" or if someone starts choking you at the ATM do this and that.  Any respectable gym/instructor emphatically makes it clear that what is being practiced is a sport, like football or boxing.  Any advantage on The Street gained from MMA training is going to be from conditioning, having taken a punch, and knowing how to keep your mind calm when rolling.  The conditioning aspect is huge, too; ever seen a real fight?  It's always one (drunk) guy hanging on for dear life after running out of steam 15 seconds into it and trying to survive until it gets broken up, or it's both (drunk) guys gassing and just kind of flopping around (assuming nobody got stabbed).  

Try it out for yourself, go all out, 110% as if your life depended on it and whale on a heavy bag for a few minutes- it takes a LOT out of you.  Then imagine doing it while drunk and tired and on asphalt and trying to keep a 200lb copper-mine laborer from taking your head off and fuck me this was an expensive shirt and my old lady is watching the whole thing and what're his friends getting out of the trunk of that car and holy shit I'm going to get arrested.  Not that, you know, I ever did that.

Nobody seriously believes that taking MMA is going to turn them into Jason Bourne.  Even the top guys like Barnett or Fedor don't go anywhere without an entourage that includes professional armed bodyguards and these are some of the baddest headbangers on the planet (much like pro boxers always have security and an entourage).  Even when I was in prime shape I always had a knife or a pistol, you learn quick that there's always someone stronger.  

Might some impressionable kid have delusions about his abilities?  Maybe, but he'll be a lot closer to reality than the kid at the Kenpo* school.

*Not trying to diss specific systems, just using them as an example.  Yes I know there are good & bad schools for any system including MMA.

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Re: Blood And Guts As Rites Of Passage -- Mixed Ma

DEMachina.

Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 07:28:11 AM EST

none

You make good points, definitely.  I think you just have more faith in the training these kids get than I do; it all depends on what they're taught (and how well).

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

24

help

cmoney8622.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:50:10 PM EST

none

HEy ia m looking for a good mma gym in okc can any one help me out email me at cmoney8622@yahoo.com

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