I agree with Saletan: The mindset behind gay marriage (that the important part of marriage is that the persons married are happy with the partner they chose, not that some social norm is followed) can also be applied to polygamy and incest:
- Polygamy has no known medical risks (it may have some mental risks due to relationship drama), so if the participants are adult and want to live that way, I see no reason why they should not.
What is troublesome about polygamy today is that it is often found in conjunction with other immoral behaviour (weddings with minors, "social engineering" where young men are exiled from the community to increase he availability of available women). Polygamy should not be "guilty by association" with these, however, meaning to say it is wrong to forbid polygamy because of those other things that do not have to be related to it. Just as we nowadays do not equate "men and women living under one roof without marriage" with "prostitution" anymore, like was often done in former times. Even if one views prostitution as bad, that would be no reason to forbid men and women to cohabit etc.
- Incest has a few medical dangers in people with certain recessive genetical defects, however comparisons to pure-bred horses etc seem disingenuous, seeing that it is highly unlikely that incest happens for more than one generation (I fell in love with my sister, as did my father and his father? Come on...) From a practical point of view, the risks are small enough to not warrant society interfering with their lives, from what I can tell.
That's why I say: If two grown people want to live together, they should be allowed to, and be allowed to make contracts over rights commonly associated with marriage, as hospital visitation rights and inheritance rights etc. I don't care what their genders etc. are and if they have similar contracts with other persons. Because it is not my place to concern myself with them, it's their lives, they don't affect mine.
It would be best if those contracts would be recognized not just in the state where it was made, but generally, so a standard procedure would be nice. If you call it marriage or not seems irrelevant to me, however I know others feel strongly about that, and should feel free to argue about that.
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Re: Sounds about right to me
Sun May 25, 2008 at 05:36:10 AM EST
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From a practical point of view, the risks are small enough to not warrant society interfering with their lives, from what I can tell.
I'm far from convinced by the data on this.
All the studies I've seen put the number of fatal recessive genes in the average person at around 4. These do not result in societal cost due to inbreeding, because when expressed they generally result in an early pregnancy miscarriage.
If you accept the data showing a 2 percent chance of a major birth defect for cousins, the rate for a mother / son or father /daughter pairing can then be calculated at 16 percent. This also requires that the average number of such birth defect genes carried (though not expressed) by the average person be 1.28. This number doesn't seem so very far off but from it we can calculate that the chance of such a genetic defect being expressed in someone who is born from a very large number of consecutive brother / sister pairings should be 1 - exp (-.64) = 48%, which seems rather low compared with anecdotal evidence such as Charles II of Spain.
Of course, recessive genes which leave the person with them expressed worse off but still in the "normal" range would not be caught at all by this method, and we have no idea at all how many of them there are from this data, or how badly effected by them the average child of cousins would be.
Of course, the child of anyone with someone with someone unrelated has no inbreeding risk, even if one parent is Charles II of Spain. In a situation like Thoroughbreds or AKC puppies, the problem is that that there are no animals to breed to which aren't closely related (except the mutts). The inbreeding problem is with the whole gene pool.
A related situation would be cheetahs or American Indians, where there was a severe inbreeding a very long time ago, and any resulting genetic diseases have been long ago evolved out of the population, but genetic diversity remains low. This leaves populations vulnerable to disease, not because their immune systems are bad, but because all members are vulnerable to the same diseases.
My thought, of course, was that the reason against incest is for evolutionary reasons. Seeing how Saletan talks about how scientists had found reasons for inbreeding in other species, I clicked on his link...to find it linked to another blog entry by Saletan. Really, this hyperlinking within a site is a bit annoying and not helpful.
I note that most of the species that Saletan talks about in his link to himself blog entry on inbreeding has to do with the lower species, such as salmon and insects.
The wikipedia entry is more useful. Really, Slate needs better standards, if Saletan can't even check wiki to see what he might have missed in his writeup.
All anyone has to do is think about inbreeding that we already know about: purebred dogs and thoroughbred horses. Both purebred dogs and thoroughbred horses are prone to more diseases. This might not be apparent within the first generation, but if it becomes too-long a practice within families, then it will lead to a much higher probability of diseases and deformities. Just think about the Hapsburg family.
In regards to polygamy: incest has the opposite genetic effect than polygamy. Polygamy means more genetic diversity through the different mothers. Incest means less genetic diversity.
In regards to legalizing gay marriage: doesn't effect genetic diversity or lack of. It's the same effect as people who choose not to have offspring. After all, allowing people to remain single doesn't mean that singles should also be grouped with the incest taboo.
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Re: Saletan citing himself
Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:38:41 AM EST
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In regards to polygamy: incest has the opposite genetic effect than polygamy. Polygamy means more genetic diversity through the different mothers. Incest means less genetic diversity.
So then they balance each other out?
All anyone has to do is think about inbreeding that we already know about: purebred dogs and thoroughbred horses. Both purebred dogs and thoroughbred horses are prone to more diseases.
And yet they're probably the least likely species on the planet to go extinct any time soon. The inbreeding, while an individual negative, has a larger purpose that keeps the species peculiarly protected. Think corn and apples.
In terms of threats to humanity's genetic perpetuation there are tons of massively larger threats. Do I morally condone incest or polygamy? Honestly, I don't care to give them that much thought. I have no personal interest in them and I'm not going to waste my time condemning those who might go down that road. There numbers are so small as to be a tiny diversion in the march of human genetics. I don't think either matters, though. In the long run, Saletan is right.
It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.
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Re: Saletan citing himself
Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:54:21 PM EST
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There are many species, such as Thoroughbred horses, whose survival depends upon their usefulness to human beings, and who, you conclude, are "the least likely species on the planet to go extinct any time soon". As I have sometimes mentioned on this site before, I think that human civilization is in grave peril at the present time and might indeed collapse, sooner than most people would expect. And in some post-apocalyptic future, it may be that many or all of the species that we currently cultivate and protect for our own purposes will be left to their own devices, which may prove inadequate in many cases. In the wild, the pure-bred dogs will not do as well as wolves (although some interbreeding with wolves is likely).
One of the problems of criticizing incest on the basis that there may be offspring with genetic illnesses resulting from recessive genes, is that we do not consistently regulate human reproduction on the basis of genetics. For example, if it is known that a given person has a genetic defect (and quite a lot of people do) should that person be allowed to reproduce at all? Even in a non-incestuous mating, the defective gene is likely to be passed on, and may case a congenital illness. Yet everyone is allowed to reproduce at will, with no genetic screening involved. Only in cases of incest do we suddenly become concerned about genetics.
Many old discussions on Plastic touched on this issue. This writeup by Ms Sue in particular was very productive.
I'm not sure how we get to the 'right to incest' from the 'right to polygamy' but it as always seemed clear to me that redefining the marriage contract is a slippery slope with lots of social implications.
I'll also take the opportunity to propound on what I believe is the best libertarian view re: the social implications of redefining marriage which predicted a lot of the slippery slope challenges which arises.
Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.