Business

Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

HidingFromGoro.

Posted to Business on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:56:00 PM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

Time Warner has been talking about moving to a business model of metered broadband with monthly caps, and it starts today, 5 June 08.  The choices are either $29.95/month for 768Kbps with a 5GB cap or $54.90/month for 15Mbps with a 40GB cap.  Overage charges are $1 per GB on both plans.

You're probably thinking the same thing I was:  "That's Comcastic!"  Comcast's plan has a more reasonable 250GB cap and(plus $15 per 10GB overage fee), though.

An internal TW memo reads in part "Following the trial, a determination will be made as to whether or not existing subscribers should be charged. We will be testing technical backend as well as Marketing and Messaging to customers. We will use the results of the trial to evaluate results for possible future nationwide rollouts."

The caps might not seem low to you if you don't use torrents, but consider streaming video or even flash-heavy sites/ads.  Then there's MMO gaming, and online distribution of games, and even consoles can get pretty bandwidth-intensive- what with updates, promotional videos, video chat, and downloadable games (Xbox originals run about 4.7GB since they're just images from the games).  So mom & dad might just check their email and stock sites, but if Junior is up there getting his WOW or 360 on; and Sis is posting pictures regularly to her MySpace, those caps become a joke.  Add some youtube and the joke isn't even funny.  That's not even mentioning streaming video from places like Netflix.  Hmmm... streaming movies from Netflix is potential competition for TW- probably a coincidence.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by HidingFromGoro, technology, cable, broadband, Internet (all tags)

This story: 25 comments (3 from subqueue)
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1

Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

port1080.

Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:11:28 PM EST

none

joshv argued in the sub-q that it would take "hours and hours" of video to reach 40GB.  That depends - if we're talking low-def highly compressed stuff, then yeah - but if we're talking hi-def movies, then not so much.  A two hour HD movie can be as large as 8 GB - so downloading as few as five movies could take up your entire b/w allocation for the month.  With the increasing legal availability of HD movies through iTunes and other services, Time Warner, Comcast, et. al. can no longer make the argument that "only pirates use that much bandwidth" - it would be very easy for a moderate movie watcher to run up against those b/w caps (after all, that's just barely more than one movie a week).  Comcast's 200 GB/moth cap seems a lot more reasonable, although still annoying.

Personally, I don't except that this will go all that far for one main reason - Verizon.  For whatever reason Verizon has consistently avoided b/w caps both on their DSL service and, more importantly, on their FIOS service (which offers speeds that are generally faster than, or at least on par with, what most cable companies offer).  Verizon is very, very keen to take customers away from the cable companies and it seems to me that the bad PR Time Warner is going to get from this will more than offset any savings they see in bandwidth costs.  As Verizon's FIOS network rollout expands, I suspect that this talk of caps will probably fall to the wayside.

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Entering through the center door is Netflix.

MayorBob.

Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:20:33 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

Which is rolling out what they see as the wave of the future in terms of movie delivery systems. $99 for the box and a $9 a month fee gets you access to 10,000 titles. It won't support HD movies, yet (one assumes that's coming). I can only assume this service will really get expensive quick for a dedicated cinephile who's not mindful of broadband caps.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

jwb.

Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:54:11 PM EST

5.00 (astute, astute, astute)

Let's stop using the word "cap" here.  Comcast and Time Warner will still relay arbitrary amounts of traffic, but they will charge you for amounts over a certain base rate.  Sounds pretty damn reasonable to me.  What is everybody bitching about here?  These plans are extremely similar to existing phone, wireless, and even electric utility billing plans.  Every other product in the world is charged by amount used, and it's a good fit for Internet service as well.

People should focus on their real underlying complaint here, which is that for most Americans their ISP is a monopoly service.  There's no real competition for ISPs in most US cities and therefore people know that the cable or phone monopolist can start increasing prices at any time.  Indeed, one needs only glance at one's $80/month cable television bill to realize that the cable company has serious pricing powers.

People should be taking these matters into their own hands and using the powers of the city or state governments to deploy widespread, fast fiber optic networks owned by the public.  If the Internet is as important as the Interstate Highway System, then this is the only logical course of action.

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but does it scale

wetkarma.

Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 05:08:04 AM EST

5.00 (interesting, informative)

Comcast and Time Warner will still relay arbitrary amounts of traffic, but they will charge you for amounts over a certain base rate. Every other product in the world is charged by amount used, and it's a good fit for Internet service as well.

Why? I'm not being contrary here but your statement is a bit flawed. There isn't a limited amount of tv I watch once the monthly rate is paid; HBO doesn't knock on my door for watching them 24/7. If I make a 'local' call on my telephone, the rate is still the same regardless of whether I spend a minute, a day or an entire weekend talking.  Not every service product is subject to supply scarcity -- and it is scarcity that drives the need to limit usage.

So the real issue here is -- is internet bandwith a scarce resource? And the answer is somewhat nuanced -- at the core, the internet has ton of excess capacity. Plenty of fiber laid during the 90s still remain 'dark' and unusued.

It is the last mile providers which utilize shared wire systems at low throughput rate where constraints occur.

Prediction: Fiber ISB providers won't ever see need to implement caps as their network is not subject to the same constraints that cable providers have.

Now you make quite an astute point re: ISP's having monopolies, but this monopoly is not over internet access but rather of internet access via cable. As services are rolled out to utilize more and more bandwith, the cable companies won't find themselves getting richer from charging 'excess' usage fees; instead they'll find their revenue declining as competition from FFTH, WiMAX and mesh-networks drive their customers to better and cheaper options.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: but does it scale

jwb.

Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 12:46:58 PM EST

none

When you watch HBO, there is no marginal cost to anybody.  Every person in America could change the channel to HBO at once, and no bad thing would happen to the cable system.  HBO bills your cable company monthly for the number of subscribers, and the cable company bills you monthly for subscribing.  Makes sense.

The cable company does incur a marginal cost for every byte you transfer, because they aren't tier-1 ISPs for the most part and they have to pay for transit.  There is also a cost because their other customers get pissed off by the congestion and switch to a different ISP.  So it makes sense for the cable company to bill you by the byte, because it reflects their cost structure.

People who are waiting for Verizon to save them from their cable monopoly are likely to be waiting a while.  At current roll-out rates, FiOS will pass every dwelling in the USA in the year 2080.

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marginal costs and the other edge of monopolies

wetkarma.

Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:19:52 PM EST

5.00 (interesting, informative, informative)

I use to work for an ISP, and trust me -- they don't pay by the byte. Instead they pay based on the 95th percentile of use - furthermore pull up any charge of wholesale bandwith prices and you'll see they are going down (not UP or even flat) year over year by orders of magnitude. Bandwith costs are NOT where the cable companies are losing their money -- once they pay for their 12/24 month contract to a hook into a core ISP, that cost is FIXED and NOT variable. No ISP in the USA pays for metered wholesale broadband access.

Where ISP's get chewed up on costs is in the upgrade -- if they forecast peak demand at say 10GB/s over the course of the day/month/whatever time period, and demand actually goes to 10.001 GB/s, they get pushed into a higher package wholesale grade (call this the 20GB/s grade), whose costs are generally orders of magnitude higher than the 10GB package cost. This is known as the step function of bandwith costing. There is no incremental wholesale cost - its flat rate till you max it then you go into the next tier where (and this is key) its flat rate again.

Separately, the cost of actually being able to DO 20GB/s doesn't really come from the extra bandwith package, but from the equipment and human resources it takes to install and deploy it. If your IT life-cycle on your business plan was supposed to be 5 years, and in year 3 demand is already maxing out your equipment. You have a budget problem. It doesn't help that the next generation of equipment is obscenely expensive either.

Think about it this way: say you run a home network. You were fine and happy at 10Mbps, but then wanted to do file sharing between your two pc's. This worked pretty well but bogged the network, so you bought a 100Mbps router and 100MBps network cards and maybe even entirely new computers -- the problem went away until you started streaming video from your home server to your Apple TV while wanting to play a CIV IV lan game. Again maxed out, and so now you are looking at doing the same thing 1GBps equipment this time all over again. While you are operating within your home network capacity, it doesn't matter if you are using up all the available bandwith, but once you hit the 'wall' -- the cost of going over the limit becomes a hefty infrastructure upgrade for the entire network. THATS what's killing the cable ISP's -- their failure to anticipate/meet the demand of the market NOT how many $'s it costs them to ship bytes around the world.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: but does it scale

port1080.

Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:10:24 PM EST

none

People who are waiting for Verizon to save them from their cable monopoly are likely to be waiting a while.  At current roll-out rates, FiOS will pass every dwelling in the USA in the year 2080.

While I wish Verizon was rolling FiOS service out faster, I still think that even with current rollout rates there will probably be some impact.  Verizon doesn't have to match the same rollout as Comcast to make Comcast nervous.  Verizon has been targeting higher income neighborhoods across the country (to Comcast's chagrin, since most cable companies are required to offer universal coverage).  Because of this Verizon has a relatively small presence in a wide variety of geographical regions - but that presence is concentrated in the most profitable areas.  Comcast doesn't price by neighborhood though - their pricing is regional.  Because of this if they're offering lower pricing to compete against Verizon in one neighborhood, this should still help drive down prices in the whole region, even in areas that doesn't have FiOS service.

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I'm a Comcast Monopoly Victim

Shy Elf.

Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 01:38:46 AM EST

none

I have practically zero broadband choices other than Comcast.  No DSL; I'm too far from the hub.  No other cable companies;  I've checked, there are none.  No Verizon fiber. Practically speaking,  it's Comcast or dialup.

Oh, there are other options.  I've checked them out, and they're all outrageously expensive  There's satellite down / dialup up.  There's microwave from the Sears tower... if I put a 30' tower on my roof, and pay huge rates for bandwidth.

This proposed policy has to be considered an improvement over current Comcast policy.  Despite the fact that they are a natural monopoly with no competition, under current policy if they decide I am using too much internet bandwith, an amount which, by the way, they refused to define but appears to be a percentage ranking relative to other Comcast customers, they cut my broadband access and no matter how much I pay won't give it back.  I read an article once about an American in England who was receiving letters from the phone company demanding that he cut us phone usage or be disconnected, regardless of how much he was willing to pay.  That's pretty much what current Comcast policy is.

Both WOW and AT&T provide cable services next door to my town, but have decided to my town is too poor to be worth serving.  WOW at least has the honesty to just say "service is not available", while AT&T dishonestly blames the refusal of a neighboring town to provide a franchise agreement, while my town offers a cheap franchise agreement which they refuse to take.

Look, I may be being naive here, but if you're a monopoly, aren't you obligated to serve everyone in your area?  Can you really just decide that some customers want to use too much, and therefore you will refuse to provide service at any price?

The key regulatory failure here, I think, is that the FCC has completely abrogated any responsibility for regulating the internet, while allowing local municipalities to impose franchise barriers, instead of banning such charges.

Let me say that Comcast service sucks.  I've spent hours at a time with requests to Google being intercepted by their Sandvine filters while requests to Yahoo go through just fine.  Any new connection has a decent chance to be foiled by spoofed RST packets from Comcast.  When they deign to allow you to have service, of course, service is great, though absurdly expensive.

The key resistance here is Know Nothing Tom.  Tom knows nothing about the internet.  If you tell him he's going to be charged $15 per 10 GB over 250 GB(down only for Comcast, mind you, vs both ways for Time Warner), he has no fucking clue what a GB is, and worries that he'll hit the 250 GB barrier while checking his email, and looks for a different carrier.  I have an elderly relative who's a Know Nothing Tom.

250 GB free down, free up and $15 / 10 GB after that is eminently reasonable.  Of course, Comcast rates in the first place are absurd because they're a monopoly, but I have no choice but to continue to pay them because they're a monopoly.  But the point is that the bandwidth limitation isn't a problem, whatever the normal connection cost.  Know Nothing Tom, however, refuses to pay per GB, so bandwidth must remain free, because otherwise in areas where Know Nothing Tom has the option of DSL service, he will choose DSL service instead.

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

joshv.

Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:52:58 PM EST

none

Most "regular" users aren't going to be downloading pirated blu-ray movies.  I am a relatively heavy user of online video and I doubt I go much above 40GB/month.  I use Netflix, iTunes, and about half a dozen of the various network's web-based episode players to keep up with shows I've missed.  Basic iTunes video (granted, not HD) weighs in at about 500MB for a 45 minute episode, so even most movies will be under 1 GB.  So that cap would be 40-60 TV episodes, or 20 movies on iTunes, which probably has higher than average quality.

As HD becomes more common, 40GB is definitely not going to be enough fort the average user, but it's probably ok for now.

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

port1080.

Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:59:46 PM EST

none

Most "regular" users aren't going to be downloading pirated blu-ray movies.

There you go again with that.  iTunes already has perfectly legal HD movies for sale, as do some other sites, and this will become more and more common within the next year or two I'm sure.  The Xbox live marketplace already sells downloadable HD movies and I expect Sony will start to push into that market as well as they release new versions of the PS3 with more online capabilities.  Netflix will also undoubtedly be moving into the HD market shortly.  The mandated switch to HD televisions is less than a year away now - and people are going to want HD content for those new widescreen TVs when they realize how crappy most low-def content looks when it's stretched for the bigger screens.  I think that demand for bandwidth will be exploding very quickly...indeed this is probably why Time Warner is trying to put something like this in place now, but I think that it's already far too late.

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^ 7

Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

joshv.

Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:47:50 PM EST

none

Yes, but the vast majority of the content available now is not HD.  There's not much HD on iTunes, and as I noted in my previous post, you'd have to spend a ton to go over 40GB/month on iTunes.

I agree with you that HD is the future, but bandwidth always gets cheaper.  By the time HD is mainstream, the caps will be higher.

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

MayorBob.

Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 08:29:18 PM EST

none

The mandated switch next year is to digital, not high definition.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

permazorch.

Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:30:48 PM EST

none

The mandated switch next year is to digital, not high definition.

Yeah, but c'mon! What do you think is going to happen between Thanksgiving and February 19th? Whether it's Festivus, or Orthodox Christmas, Solstice, or whatever-the-fuck, people will be upgrading their equipment like crazy on, or around, the new year.

----- The earth may burn, but we will quiver

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

HidingFromGoro.

Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 06:58:45 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

And the messed up thing about it is, they have that capability now, to deliver quality HD programming but they don't.  I didn't even buy a HDTV (something I regret when I play my Xbox 360) because even when the bandwidth is available to deliver uncompressed HD, good old Comcast just uses it to shovel in a bunch more worthless channels that nobody watches- compression artifacts ahoy!  

I need to get off my lazy ass and get a DVI adapter for the console and play it on my nice new computer monitor; that way this 150+lb RCA TV with the screwed up picture can finally be fully relegated to Nick Jr. and PBS for the little one, and Ninja Gaiden 2 / Virtua Fighter can finally be done justice.

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

joshv.

Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:01:33 PM EST

none

Botched my math there.  That would be 40 movies, or 80-100 episodes, depending on their length.

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^ 1

You gotta lock that down.

pO157.

Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:48:04 AM EST

none

With the increasing legal availability of HD movies through iTunes and other services, Time Warner, Comcast, et. al. can no longer make the argument that "only pirates use that much bandwidth" - it would be very easy for a moderate movie watcher to run up against those b/w caps (after all, that's just barely more than one movie a week).

That is true, but there are other reasons. For example, Verizon tosses in a free wireless router in my area (or maybe that was just me). The default security on those things is laughable. You gotta lock that shit down. On a nice day you can go outside on my street (or a block or two over) and see maybe 3-6 or more people sitting on their porches trying to free-ride on somebodies unsecured broadband connection. One time, for fun, I searched for networks from my house and could find about 8 or 9 of varying signal strength. Half or so were wide open.

Imagine being a law abiding citizen and simply due to your ignorance of computers having some creepy guy come in and use your access point for free downloads of Bea Arthur porn or something at 4am. And then getting the cap violation bill for that. Ugh.

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

T Slothrop.

Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:47:50 PM EST

none

The thing I really don't get about this from TW's perspective is that it seems as they are just conceding the marketing wars to the local wireline phone carriers, none of whom (at least as far as I can find out) have ANY plans of doing this with their DSL service.

My Significant Other is a mid-level manager for the local phone company that serves the Charlotte suburbs, and she says their marketing drones are practically salivating over the prospect of TW doing this in the Charlotte market. They figure they can go in and get a significant chunk of the power-user business back that they lost to TW a few years ago when cable became theoretically faster than DSL.

{Insert amusing quotation here}

4

Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

skeeter1.

Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:22:33 PM EST

none

"or even flash-heavy sites/ads."

Are there are any that aren't loaded with the shit any more?  Bugs the hell out of me when I do my morning check of weather, local news, crappy wide-area news, and just about everywhere else.  It's bad enough that I have to suffer through their Flash ads, but then have to pay an ISP more as well?  So far, I'm just paying $25/mo for a DSL link, but if they jack up the charges, I'm going Amish.  

Cable connection?  Not at $50-$100/mo when I can get HDTV from NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox, CW, PBS, MyTV, a couple of 24hr weather channels, all for free over the airwaves.  I wouldn't be surprised if a few more people wouldn't be digging out the old "rabbit ears" and dumping cable or satelite connections, particularly when the US goes all-digital TV come February, 2009.  My butt's already well covered.  

there's only one way to find out...

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

HidingFromGoro.

Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 06:11:34 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Are there are any that aren't loaded with the shit any more?

Firefox extensions are your friend.  Seriously, with FlashBlock, NoScript, and AdBlock Plus it's like a whole new internet.

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

thefadd.

Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:56:45 PM EST

none

I have had a cell phone eight years now and dsl and directv for two. They all seem to have really pinched up the rates in the last few months. I can still afford all three but I really don't want to any longer, especially for how little I honestly use any of them. Something's gonna get cut.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

pO157.

Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:43:33 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

I have had a cell phone eight years now

Every time I renew my plan (Sprint) my rates go down and my features go up. Because that's how I roll. You just have to know how to do it right. I currently have 2 lines, free roaming, free texting, free internet, free mobile to mobile talking, free weekends, free nights @ 6pm, 800 minutes a month, $5 off a month, $10 off a month, 25% off a month, 15% off a month and probably a bunch of other free shit I forgot about. Over the cost of my customer years with them they have also given out 3 'free' phones and enough airline miles for one or two tickets. Final price? ~$35-40 (down from probably $150)

Of course, since there are millions of cell phone users, somebody is probably covering the companies loss from me. But as long as it's not me, I don't care. :)

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

thefadd.

Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 01:50:04 PM EST

none

Dude.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

pO157.

Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:10:40 PM EST

none

Dude.

...where's my car?

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

skeeter1.

Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:09:27 PM EST

none

"I can still afford all three but I really don't want to any longer, especially for how little I honestly use any of them. Something's gonna get cut."

Well, here's what I mean.  When Cox Cable first became available around here 30 years ago, it was $6/mo.  Today, basic cable (no premium channels), high-speed digital, and telephone?  Try $128/mo.  HDTV (where I live I can get all the major networks, for what it's worth), free.  Landline phone (AT&T)?  $22/mo.  DSL (AT&T)?  $25/mo.  Cellphone (Sprint)?  $42/mo.  Long-distance calling charges -- nothing.  Do the math, but unless you have to use cable, you can do better without.  

there's only one way to find out...

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Re: Time Warner broadband: know your limits.

pO157.

Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:39:04 AM EST

none

Do the math, but unless you have to use cable, you can do better without.  

Exactly. We have no need for landline phone service, except for the security system. The phone was costing us almost $40 a month just for local calls (which we never used) and to have it in case our alarm needed to dial out. With the advent of crackheads finally getting around to realizing they could cut the phone lines and plunder to their narcotic addled hearts' content a phone based security system became pointless. So we canned the phone, and installed one of these puppies. Now if you break in, unless you have a radio jammer, the cops will show up to escort you off to jail within one to two business hours. Unless they don't feel like showing up.

With cable, we were paying $60 a month for basic service. They also had an extremely surly attitude, and would arbitrarily miss service calls, then blame it on us. So I kicked them to the curb and we went with Dish Network. Now it is $37 a month (no tax) for more channels, including a crap load of college football, no surly attitude, and the signal never goes out for three week periods.

Of course, we had internet via cable, so we switched to dry-loop DSL for ~$23 a month. Verizon even tossed in a free wireless router, so that's nice.

In conclusion, kick your cable company to the curb and reduce your local phone companies presence in your life by as much as humanly possible. Go satellite. You'll be glad you did.

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