Especially when it kills you.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Caveat emptor.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

Let's break it down for a moment. The first website seems to object because the HPV vaccine has not been studied in combination with almost every single childhood treatment under the sun. If this is the case then the majority of medications on the market should be withheld unless the patient is taking no other drugs, even if the empirical knowledge of the provider suggests that the combination is fine.

They then further go on to complain about the minute presence of yeast in the vaccine. Since the vaccine is recombinant it is likely that the ingredients in the vaccine are grown in yeast. If a person has an allergy to yeast then sure, they should not take it, just like if you are allergic to eggs you shouldn't take the Flu vaccine. No big deal. Common sense. The next objection appears to be against scary sounding chemicals (one of which, in the case of alum, has been used for over 50 years  and was tested and found safe years ago when people began to raise objections) that are actually quite commonly used in vaccines but are actually required for the effectiveness of the treatment.

The second link brings up interesting points regarding Merck's ties to Gov. Perry in Texas and the rights of parents to choose their child's vaccination schedule or status. This is the type of discussion we should be having, not the usual tired arguments about how vaccines are corrupting our precious bodily fluids.

If anything corrupts our precious bodily fluids, it's the measles virus, dying of polio, or HFCS (among others).

You give it to your kid first. 18 people (plus 10 fetuses) nationwide have already died of a vaccine that protects against a disease that significantly effects maybe 3500 and has reasonable treatments.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

I need to have some kids first. In the interim, let me reference post hoc ergo propter hoc again. The evidence in that link was tenuous at best. If 15,000 people died tomorrow after eating pizza within the last week does that mean we should ban pizza?

Correlation does not equal causation.

Your reference is quite the opposite. No one's asking to ban anything--simply for it not to be compulsory. Whatever happened to first do no harm? That obviously went out the window when everyone figured out they could make shitloads of money getting the government to require people purchase their product in the name of "safety."

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

My reference was quite on target. It satirized faulty logic used by some against vaccines. For example, one common piece of 'evidence' I hear is a story that within days/weeks or being vaccinated against some preventable illness some poor kid starts displaying the symptoms of autism. Does this mean that vaccinations cause autism? No. It means that autism usually starts to be noticed around that age and learning deficits start to be noticed in children around that time, vaccinations or not.

The problem I have with the situation is many of the folks who are arguing against vaccines are doing so with incorrect or inaccurate information. They then scare people who have done little to no research on the issue.

I have met many people who are against vaccines. Usually they tend to be completely ignorant of the basics behind vaccination. They usually have little understanding of relative risk. In many cases they cannot even articulate why vaccines are "dangerous" but they'll surely be damned if they let themselves get vaccinated!

You state "Whatever happened to first do no harm?" Where exactly has it been proven that HPV or other vaccines currently in use actually kill/harm/injure people in greater (or equivalent) proportion to that of the disease itself? All I see on anti-vaccination websites is a bunch of random anecdotes and assumption.

The vaccine opponents hold medical treatments to a horrific double standard. They want everything to be 100% safe, scientifically tested and demand incontrovertible evidence to that effect. However, they have no problem eschewing the scientific method to make their case that various treatments are harmful. What if we turned that system on its head? What if I ran the FDA and I heard some AM radio broadcast about Dr. Ivan's Snake Oil which cured Aunt Wilma's cancer? It's now approved because if it worked for Aunt Wilma so it must be fine for Aunt Gladys, Aunt Bette, and Uncle Woodrow. Of course, there is no need to check and see if it actually cured cancer or not. But anybody who says it is a placebo or actually harmful needs to prove that. Would THAT fly? I think we both know the answer to that.

Refuse to get vaccinated, fine, great. I just wish everybody that did so would put some thought into it first. I'm not saying you haven't, I am just saying the ones I have met clearly have not. Then they go bringing back measles from Switzerland or something. That's the way your hardcore vaccine opponent works.

The FDA has already linked the thimerosal in vaccines to autism and recommended it not be used, although only some manufacturers have complied, so I wouldn't use that example in future What I simply wish people would consider is the degree to which science has been perverted When you say such and such has been proven and such and such hasn't been proven these are all tests that have been funded The vaccine opponents hold medical treatments to a horrific double standard. They want everything to be 100% safe, scientifically tested and demand incontrovertible evidence to that effect. However, they have no problem eschewing the scientific method to make their case that various treatments are harmful. What if we turned that system on its head? What if I ran the FDA and I heard some AM radio broadcast about Dr. Ivan's Snake Oil which cured Aunt Wilma's cancer? It's now approved because if it worked for Aunt Wilma so it must be fine for Aunt Gladys, Aunt Bette, and Uncle Woodrow. Of course, there is no need to check and see if it actually cured cancer or not. But anybody who says it is a placebo or actually harmful needs to prove that. Would THAT fly? I think we both know the answer to that.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Vaccine opponents simply want not to be required to purchase the product of a large company that has gained "scientific approval" through a corrupt system. Dietary supplements, on the other hand, are correctly classified as food under the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994. They have no business being held to any curative standard because they cannot legally be used to treat a disease and no one can legally make any claim that they do. If someone does make such a claim, they can and will be prosecuted by the Federal Trade Commission.

While the FDA reports 260 deaths associated with dietary supplements over the FIFTEEN YEAR period from 1989 to 2004, prescription drugs remain the #3 cause of annually in America--out pacing even illegal drugs in Florida, the only state to even keep such records.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

You can obviously strike everything before the quoted italicized portion.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

After a quick read of the article, it looks like the drugs that caused the deaths were used in an abusive fashion.  As Rush Limbaugh showed us, it is easy to use a legal drug for illegal purposes.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

If the drugs were used without regards to the prescriber's or pharmacy instructions then how can anybody be blamed besides the the person who ignored the label on the bottle? Unless of course it is the pharmaceutical industry. Then let's blame them.

It matters only if you care to make a value judgment on the better way to die--suffering through a lengthy addictive process after getting hooked by the doctor you trust who has put too much faith in an FDA approval process riddled with fast tracking corruption or just straight up dying all of a sudden because you got the wrong combination of drugs and/or too much of one.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

I've heard all the buzz about them containing additives and fortifiers and preservatives that allegedly cause other crap.  But I don't think I've ever heard of anyone getting hooked on a vaccine.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

We'd move on from vaccines to general smearing of dietary supplements and pharmaceuticals, I believe.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Vaccine opponents simply want not to be required to purchase the product of a large company that has gained "scientific approval" through a corrupt system. Dietary supplements, on the other hand, are correctly classified as food under the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994. They have no business being held to any curative standard because they cannot legally be used to treat a disease and no one can legally make any claim that they do. If someone does make such a claim, they can and will be prosecuted by the Federal Trade Commission.  

What do dietary supplements have to do with vaccines? Nobody is going to die from not having six pack abs, but they sure will of meningitis, measles, or the cancers caused by HPV.

There is misinformation being propagated by vaccine opponents. I understand that there is a legitimate debate to be had regarding mandatory vaccinations. However the discussion usually ends in some random tangent about how the free radicals are going to expand our brains, or something.

Finally, perhaps it is the vaccines opponents who should stop talking about thimersal. The CDC has stated that there is no scientific evidence at all suggesting it is responsible for anything beyond  redness at injection sites. Even the redness may be a stretch as a few months ago it was demonstrated that it has no effect on vaccine side effects, including redness. I'm not really sure where people are saying the scientific community or FDA has gone and linked autism to thiomersal, especially since that hypothesis was rejected as late as 2004. Thiomersal was removed from vaccines as a precautionary measure when other substitutes were found. You'll note it has been deleted from almost every US vaccine available now. Incidentally this kind of negates the argument that the medical system is reckless, corrupt and cares for naught except corporation profit.

Here is a link to the table referenced at the end of my post.

What do dietary supplements have to do with vaccines?

I don't know. You're the one who started randomly smearing Dr. Evil's magic potions and what not.

Just for shits and giggles, here are your boy Ron Paul's takes on the subjects.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

Dietary supplements are magic potions? Well that must be why a portion of the industry engages in snake oil sales tactics.

And for shits and giggles: Are people that support a candidate required to support 100% of his platform?

A portion of the industry? What like lipitor or valtrex? Where did Ron Paul claim dietary supplements were magic potions? I'm not asking you to stand behind everything Ronnie claims--just trying to open your mind with the perspective of someone you respect in the name of "putting some thought into it." :-)

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

But, the Lipitor article was horribly disingenuous. It made two objections: One that the study the author complains about was paid for by Pfizer (the maker of Lipitor) and the other that the dosages of lipitor were different when compared to the gold standard treatment at the time.

The first is a (somewhat) valid point. It is quite common for drug companies to sponsor studies on their drugs, especially if it is some of the first research done as part of the R&D process. This can then be confirmed by other groups or agencies at a later time. However you always want to minimize chances of investigator bias or publication. How does this happen? By requiring the researchers to register their study in a public database. This eliminates situations where a company runs large numbers of parallel studies side by side and only publishes the ones that give them the data they want. There are also journals that accept results of trials that are 'negative' as long as it was conducted well. So while the critic has a valid point that any results from this paper should be taken with a grain of salt this is quite common and accepted as long as all ethical and good research practices are adhered to.

His second point (that the study was gamed because patients on Lipitor received larger doses of their drugs than the patients on Pravachol did) is odd and makes me wonder what his background is. Pravachol is commonly dispensed at 40mg for most adults and as such would be a good point of comparison. 80mg appears to be on the high end of the Lipitor dosing spectrum but appears to be common for high risk patients. I think this is fine. The next time I come down with an infection should I demand the antibiotic that requires the highest maximum dosage to be effective so I don't get cheated?

I must confess I am not sure what the point of that second link was. I stopped after the random people talking about how it hurts when they pee. Is it because Valtrex does not actually cure a herpes infection? I thought that was well known and understood that it was not the point --- once the viral DNA is integrated into the chances of a cure are next to nil. The actual point of the drug is to reduce the numbers of viral particles produced by the host and hopefully eliminate outbreaks. It would be up to a patient and their doctor to work together to decide if the drug is worth the side effects.

I hope this helped.

should be:
"once the viral DNA is integrated into the host genome chances of a cure are next to nil"

Thimerisol has also been linked to hypothyroidism.

It's evil stuff.  There is a reason why there are so many 'outlaw moms' who refuse to vax.  I used to think they were freaks, but the evidence that pharmaceutical companies have been using us as their unpaid guinea pigs is compelling and a bit infuriating.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

My doctor says if I eat more barbed wire it will shred my intestines and I had to cut back on sandbags because my diet is high in fiber as it is.