Legal

Beyond Tasers: Tranquilizers for Police use?

pO157.

Posted to Legal on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 06:26:08 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

A little known protocol used by the Nashville, TN police department is alarming some physicians, mental health groups and civil libertarians. A news investigation revealed that for about two years area police officers have had the choice to call for needles loaded with one a powerful sedative to control unruly individuals they encounter.

Midazolam (commonly known as Versed) is a powerful sedative and hypnotic commonly used during colonoscopies and other invasive medical procedures. These are usually performed in hospitals by physicians and other qualified medical professionals. However, for about two years police in Nashville have been able to request that violent or unruly people they encounter be forcibly given injections in order to control them.

One of the first uses of the protocol was on a psychiatric patient, Mr. Dameon Beasley. Mr. Beasley admits he was off his medication when he was on a bridge running into traffic with knives. The police arrived and he charged them repeatedly. He remembers being tased without effect. Finally police called for emergency medical personnel and then in Mr. Beasley's own words:

"I remember they were holding me down. There was maybe four or five on each side, and I remember they were calling for something, you know. Some guy came up on the left side and hit me with it. I do know that whatever it was works immediately. I mean, you ain't got a chance if you are 300 pounds. It's like a horse tranquilizer. I don't care. You're gone. It's a wrap," he said.
He states he doesn't remember what happened, but woke up to a police Sargent asking him to sign a piece of paper. He signed, then went back under. Mr. Beasley stated he then woke up in a secured psychiatric facility.

This alarms some medical personnel and members of the civil liberties community. One opponent, from the ACLU, Ms. Weinberg, objects to forced drugging of prisoners.

I've talked to my colleagues around the country, and none of the people from the south to the north to the east to the west have ever heard about this kind of program, this kind of use where they basically force an injection upon an individual knowing nothing about his or her medical condition.

Dr. Steven Miles, a bioethicist, says the choice of drug is the best one in these types of cases because it prevents those treated from remembering what happened.

The drug has an amnesia effect, and we use that therapeutically because one of the nice ways to take care of the discomfort is to make people forget that they've had it.
However he goes on to disagree with its use in these cases.
"There is no research guideline. There is no validated protocol for this. There's not even a clear set of indications for when this is to be used except when people are agitated. By saying that it's done by the emergency medical personnel, they basically are trying to have it both ways. That is, they're trying to use a medical protocol that is not validated, not for a police function, arrest and detention."

Nashville's emergency medical director, Dr. Slovis, and coroner, Dr. Levy disagree. They state it is used as a medical treatment and police are simply not allowed to drug random people. Furthermore, they argue that the policy has been carefully considered before approval. It has been endorsed by a group of Nashville medical experts who go by "The Eagles" of which Slovis and Levy are members.

Slovis said this is common around the country and that police officers were trained in when it is a good idea to call paramedics to administer the drug. "It's something that in the medical community and in the EMS medical community is very common. It's a given. When I surveyed the major metropolitan areas around the country, I think only two cities were not actively using it.... I don't know if I would use the word diagnosing, but they are assessing the situation and saying, 'This person is not acting rationally. This is something I've been trained to recognize, this seems like excited delirium.' I don't view delirium in the field as a police function. It is a medical emergency. We're giving the drug Versed that's routinely used in thousands of health care settings across the country in the field by trained paramedics. I view what we're doing as the best possible medical practice to a medical emergency."

Mr. Beasley and his public defender disagree, pointing out that all other concerns aside, the amnesia makes it almost impossible for the defendant to participate in his own defense. His attorney is even more concerned by postings on internet police and paramedic message boards which seem to indicate the amnesia helps patients forget how they got that footprint on their chest or other abuse at the hands of law enforcement or medical staff.

Police officials refuse to say exactly who the other people drugged were, but state that 8 of 9 people injected with Versed on the street showed "improvement."

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by pO157, Homeland Security, Save the Children (all tags)

This story: 29 comments (4 from subqueue)
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1

Re: Beyond Tasers: Tranquilizers for Police use?

pO157.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 08:47:15 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

When I first saw the headline I assumed that the police were using tranquilizer guns or something in extremely rare cases for people who were truly dangerous to approach. The article seems to indicate that the medics or officers inject the drug into people while they are being held down. If this is the case why not just cuff them and toss them in the squad car? Cops should have the training and numbers to deal with horribly aggressive people.

This seems to come dangerously close to chemically restraining patients for the convenience of the city staff, which I thought was a no no.

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Re: Beyond Tasers: Tranquilizers for Police use?

thefadd.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 02:44:19 PM EST

none

I knew a friend of a friend who once broke through the handcuffs while he was on meth. Doping prisoners sets a dangerous precedent but it does seem to me that it has not been used in anything but the most necessary cases. So long as they remain open to civil liability so that egregious miscarriages can be addressed, this issue doesn't strike me as being as big as the taser issue. It seems like they are genuinely doing this as a last resort as opposed to tasering which seems to have replaced the no longer acceptable billy club to the head. The only issues I would have are that they should not be asking people to sign things in such cases.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

2

I've been administered Versed.

MayorBob.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:25:52 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

I was given it once to make my endoscopy go smoother. It is a powerful hypnotic which totally relaxes you, making you completely at ease as doctors shove a garden hose down your throat. I understand it's also given for colonoscopies. Thus, whenever medical professionals need to shove garden hoses in any bodily orifice, Versed is the go-to stuff.

As I recall, I had to read about a page and a half of possible complications from taking Versed (I remember coma and death were two of the possible outcomes) but I was assured that the anesthesiologist was totally skilled and the complications were only listed for the purpose of full disclosure. Obviously I didn't experience any complications from Versed.

But I'm wondering how they could possibly administer this as an incapacitating agent to the odd combative and uncooperative suspect they couldn't tase into submission? I don't imagine they sit the suspect down and have him read and sign a disclosure statement. And who's to say what the person had in his system causing his disorderliness which might intensify the Versed effect?

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: I've been administered Versed.

delete me.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 04:04:42 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Obviously I didn't experience any complications from Versed.

Side-effects include a garden hose down your throat or up your ass, sounds like.

- derumi (del-me)
"Bobby Fischer? Man, that guy is crazy!" - Mike Tyson

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Re: I've been administered Versed.

JimmyHavok.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 05:16:14 PM EST

none

I suspect they used the same stuff on me for my recent gastroenteroscopy.  I have no memory of what happened during the procedure, something which I find very upsetting.  The "disclosure" form I signed said I could request that someone be present during the procedure, but it said nothing whatsoever about amnesia or any other reason why I would want a chaperone.

I would have been a lot less casual about signing that form if I'd known I was signing away my memory.

3

Re: Beyond Tasers: Tranquilizers for Police use?

gerrymander.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:03:41 PM EST

4.33 (obnoxious, interesting, interesting)

As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing gained by police injecting perps with tranquilizing drugs which couldn't also be solved by injecting them with lead, in the .38 or .45 caliber varieties.

Seriously. By the time a person is so out of control that a taser isn't a sufficient disincentive, shoot him. Shoot him dead. He is only causing harm to himself and society, and will only continue to cause harm. What do we lose, save the costs of hospitalization, criminal trials and pointless lawsuits?

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give me tranquility or give me death

skeptic.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:30:39 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I can't even tell for sure whether your comment is sincere or sarcastic, but you do raise significant points either way.

Some concern has previously been expressed in this discussion about the harm that could be done to someone as a result of being injected with Versed, particularly the amnesia which would interfere with their capacity to contest their unfair treatment if indeed they had been treated unfairly.  Of course, dead people have even less capacity to seek redress of wrongs, although their surviving relatives sometimes do so on their behalf.

While we might quite reasonably be concerned with the idea that police officers  have the right to drug anybody at their own discretion, it would be even more alarming if they had the right (as they do in a typical police state) to execute anybody on the spot, whenever they want to, for any reason.  Should such a thing become an accepted practice, we would all have reason to be very frightened of the police.  No one would ever dare to question anything that the police do, since any critic could easily be silenced in the most permanent way.

This is a problem as old as civilization itself:  who shall guard the guardians?  Who is more dangerous, criminals, or the police?  The more powerful the police are, the more effectively they can fight crime, but the harder they are to stop if they choose to commit crimes themselves.  And we know perfectly well that police (like everybody else) include a certain amount of corrupt members.  There is no way to hire only morally perfect police (unfortunately).

That's why strategies for non-lethal means of controlling people, such as the administration of drugs, are useful.  The alternative probably IS that they would just be killed.  And while some people deserve to be killed, some don't, and I don't want that kind of decision to be left entirely in the hands of the police.

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Re: give me tranquility or give me death

gerrymander.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 01:15:51 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I am being serious. I don't believe we should give police the authority for summary execution, but they do certainly have sufficient authority to use lethal force in self defense. Shooting any person? Out. Shooting some nutjob running at them with knives through traffic? Very in.

As far as I'm concerned, the police already have a lot to do. They act not only as security forces, but as emergency first responders, investigators and ad hoc counselors. They don't need -- and I don't want them to have -- "medical technician" added to that list. I doubt our police response will be improved if every cop is required to carry medical malpractice insurance.

And while some people deserve to be killed, some don't, and I don't want that kind of decision to be left entirely in the hands of the police.

I would argue that the people who go dangerously off their medication or, alternately, dangerously on illegal meds have had plenty to do with that decision well before the police arrive. The cops just make the transition to the typical end state quick.

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^ 5

In summation

Lou.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 05:11:51 PM EST

5.00 (astute, astute)

If the cops were to shoot someone held down by "4 or 5 cops on a side, then it might be summary execution.  But, as P0 pointed out...they had the dude down...why not just clap him in irons?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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^ 7

Re: In summation

gerrymander.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 12:14:16 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

But, as P0 pointed out...they had the dude down...why not just clap him in irons?

Cops carry handcuffs, not Hannibal Lecter full-body casts. A person can still thrash around plenty in just appropriately-used cuffs. And when improperly used... well, that's where the "wrongful death" lawsuit against police usually includes language like "chest compression" or "breathing difficulty."

I don't necessarily want cops to have to add "bondage fetishist" to their resumes, either.

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^ 10

Been fishing?

Lou.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 12:20:56 PM EST

none

Ah man...been fishing lately?  You get a fish far enough up on the bank, he can flop around all he want...he ain't going nowhere.  Same with a dude in handcuffs and maybe leg cuffs too.  You let him flop around all he want on hot pavement all he want 'til he get tired.  Ain't no need for bondage...unless that what the perp like...then he be tired AND happy.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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Re: Been fishing?

gerrymander.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 01:06:17 PM EST

none

Or he hits his head wrong and dies, or lands in a 2-inch deep puddle and drowns, or something else which would trigger a lawsuit. Unlike a fisherman, the police have rules to follow regarding prisoners' well-being -- and those begin as soon as the person is in custody.

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^ 12

Re: Been fishing?

Lou.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 01:12:24 PM EST

none

Maybe the could give him a pillow so he don't hurt his head?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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^ 13

Re: Been fishing?

gerrymander.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 03:01:18 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

And thus, "chambermaid" gets added to the list of "jobs I don't want police to be responsible for." ;-)

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^ 17

Re: Been fishing?

Lou.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 03:11:40 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

I just thought of something...Prison Concierges.

"Yes sir, I'll ask the cellmaid to not put the mint on your pillow tonight."

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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^ 18

Re: Been fishing?

gerrymander.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 04:19:03 PM EST

5.00 (obnoxious)

"Oh, I'm sorry sir, but I'm sure that if you had called every day for the past three weeks to request we cancel the complimentary anal rape, I would have some mention of it here in my event planner."

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Re: In summation

skeeter1.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 06:02:46 PM EST

none

"But, as P0 pointed out...they had the dude down...why not just clap him in irons?"

That's my feeling as well.  The cops (and FWIW, my brother is a LEO) have absolutely no business administering psychotropic medications.  Once the suspect's on the ground and in handcuffs (and every cop carries those), what's the big deal?  

I'm a registered medical technologist (5-year degree), and the usual cop, a high school grad with 160hrs of training.  I'm not bragging or denigrating the LEOs, but they have no business administering medication, in any form.  They haven't got a clue how it might interact with any other drug it might interact with whatever the suspect might be on.  If they're seriously concerned about their own lives, or those around them, then I prescribe the lead injection.  

there's only one way to find out...

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^ 8

Re: In summation

Lou.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 06:09:50 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant, funny)

I agree...especially a drug that also causes memory loss.  Just imagine if the NYPD used this practice.

Doctor:  Mr. Louima...it pains me to tell you this, but it looks like you were ass raped by a long wooden object...like a broom handle or maybe a toilet plunger.

Abner Louima:  That's bullshit doc...I think I'd remember that!  There has to be another reason why my ass is so sore

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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^ 7

Re: In summation

thefadd.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 02:52:51 PM EST

none

I know a friend of a friend who broke out of police handcuffs while on meth, and possibly other stuff, I don't really remember and probably wasn't given the full story anyway. The key point is he did actually break the metal joints restraining him. Obviously, it fucked up his wrists but he didn't care at the time. He is lucky not to have been killed but I think the fact is sometimes even the best physical restraint systems won't work for people who are in extreme mental anguish either because of illness or drug use.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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^ 16

Re: In summation

Lou.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 03:13:39 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

Reading this, I have to wonder if someone is so drugged up that he can tear apart metal with his bare hands, would a trank even work on him?  

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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^ 16

breakin' out

JimmyHavok.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 05:30:30 PM EST

none

One of my high school friends broke out of cuffs.  He was a very large guy, and was drunk and distraught over being dumped by his girlfriend.  The police couldn't get his hands behind him, so they cuffed them in front, and according to the people who were there, he brought his hands in to his chest, then flung them out and the chain snapped.

The cops got him into a squad car without cuffing him again, but when they got to the station, he jumped out and ran away, and showed up back at the house where it had all started (about five miles away) a couple of hours later with the cuffs still on his wrists.  He was quieter by then, and it all blew over.  I never did hear how he got out of the cuffs (not that cuffs are too hard to pick, if you have a little time to work on them).

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^ 3

Re: Beyond Tasers: Tranquilizers for Police use?

HidingFromGoro.

Sat Jul 19, 2008 at 02:36:25 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Well they already had him dogpiled and restrained by the time they got someone to inject him, so shooting someone in that state is little more than summary execution.  In all of these cases the suspect has already been physically restrained enough to wait for the EMT's and/or enough to hold him still to take the shot; so my thing is like, if you can gaffle him like that in the first place, you don't need any drugs.

Cops in my area do this as well, although it's almost never done.  It does happen quite frequently in prisons all over the country, though.

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^ 25

Re: Beyond Tasers: Tranquilizers for Police use?

gerrymander.

Sat Jul 19, 2008 at 10:48:14 PM EST

none

Well, yes... but I presume that someone, somewhere had to make the policy decision that dogpiling a knife-wielding nut was the preferred method of handling the situation. I agree that in this case, after the dogpile, shooting him would have been a summary execution, and far outside of correct police behavior. It's just that I would rather a policy in place that involves fewer police, affords fewer chances for those police at the scene to become injured, and relies on already-established principles of acceptable behavior re: self-defense.

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^ 27

Re: Beyond Tasers: Tranquilizers for Police use?

thefadd.

Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:29:32 PM EST

none

I just laugh when I see cops insert themselves into the middle of a situation then try to pull the self-defense card. If the mandate is to take control of a situation, then do what is necessary to accomplish that and rationalize any action on that basis.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

21

^ 3

Re: Beyond Tasers: Tranquilizers for Police use?

JimmyHavok.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 05:11:10 PM EST

3.00 (obnoxious)

Considering the harm that your attitude does to society, perhaps you ought to be treated in the way you advocate.

15

^ 3

Re: Beyond Tasers: Tranquilizers for Police use?

thefadd.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 02:47:36 PM EST

none

These drugs are obviously being used as a last resort before shooting people in the instances outlined above. I think the vast majority of people would agree this is a reasonable alternative to shooting people and OK in these instances.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

28

^ 15

Re: Beyond Tasers: Tranquilizers for Police use?

Dyolf Knip.

Sat Jul 19, 2008 at 11:58:06 PM EST

5.00 (astute, interesting)

I can easily imagine cases where being able to quickly tranquilize a suspect would be useful.  I'm having a bit harder time coming up with ones where it would also be practical (As others have noted, you have to have the guy pretty well restrained to be able to administer the shot in the first place), but hey, the world's a wild and wooley place and I'm not a cop, so what the hell do I know?

What I absolutely will not accept is them actually making use of the amnesia and docility to get them to sign stuff.

Let's compromise.  An injection of this stuff is indeed better than getting shot by bullets, but for legal and procedural purposes, let's treat it exactly the same.  A person shot full of Versed gets the same treatment as someone shot full of lead.  They get taken to a hospital to make sure they won't die.  They don't get tossed, bleeding and unconscious, into an cell or interrogation room, made to sign confessions or whatnot while delerious or in shock.  And meanwhile the cop has to fill out reams of paperwork for "discharging a firearm" and justify the expense of medical costs, etc.

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Re: Beyond Tasers: Tranqui1izers for Police use?

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 08:03:30 PM EST

none

I don't know why you don't think a hollow-point .40 S&W is suitable. Because it is.

26

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Re: Beyond Tasers: Tranqui1izers for Police use?

gerrymander.

Sat Jul 19, 2008 at 10:34:57 PM EST

none

That's just a hole in my personal firearms ammunition knowledge, not an actual bias against the hollow-point .40 S&W. I trust your word on the matter.

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