Legal

Penny Ante Crime

MayorBob.

Posted to Legal on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:47:04 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

Laslo Mujzer of Bonita Springs, Florida may soon be clogging up the docket of a courtroom in Florida. The 43-year-old man is charged with petty theft under (US)$100, a misdemeanor. Make that charge way under $100 because what Mujzer is charged with is stealing a whopping 42 cents out of a shopping mall fountain.

Security at the Coastland Center mall in Naples, Florida were informed that a man was stealing money from the mall's fountain. Mujzer was found by the fountain with the 42 cents on him. The sign on the fountain says "All Coins Donated to Habitat for Humanity of Collier County." Mujzer remains in the county jail, costing taxpayers $88 a day for his keep. It might have even cost the police more than 42 cents for the gas to drive to the crime scene and drive this desperado to the lockup.

Mujzer's lawyer, Steve Grogoza, says the whole thing is "ridiculous." Former county prosecutor Jerry Berry said he would have dropped the charges "ten seconds after they hit my desk." But, police Lt. Greg Gaffney said: "The amount isn't a factor. A theft is a theft." Mall management, which initially indicated there is more to this story than has been reported has thus far not come forward to fill in the blanks for anyone. Mujzer's fate remains in the hands of the police and local prosecutors who could drop charges or take him to court. Public reaction to this incident range from requiring Mujzer to perform community service to lamenting the stupidity of the police in spending hundreds of dollars to chase after penny ante thieves. Another police officer said other people have been arrested for stealing small amounts of money from the fountain before and justified it with:

"He shouldn't be taking change out of the mall fountain. It's not found money. It's money that's destined for charity."

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by MayorBob, crime, petty theft, major overreaction, Florida (all tags)

This story: 13 comments (1 from subqueue)
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1

Re: Penny Ante Crime

songofthepogo.

Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:45:51 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Mujzer was found by the fountain with the 42 cents on him.

were the coins wet?  in the absence of information, i can't tell why they believe he stole them other than he was standing near the fountain and happened to have change on him.

"He shouldn't be taking change out of the mall fountain. It's not found money. It's money that's destined for charity."

maybe a completely publicly-accessible fountain isn't the best place to gather and safeguard charitable donations.  consider something with a lock on it.

we all (i think) know there's a social taboo against taking money out of a fountain but, in practical terms, it is money that someone else just threw away.  do i think what laslo did was necessarily acceptable?  no, not really, if only because one expects, when one tosses money in a fountain, that it will remain there and he broke that "contract" (although i give him props for only taking what he needed).  do i think it merited arrest?  certainly not.  maybe a, "hey, don't do that."  maybe just a stern, disapproving glance and a head-shake.

2

^ 1

Security systems

Lou.

Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 08:55:37 AM EST

5.00 (funny, funny)

consider something with a lock on it.

Or Piranhas.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

5

^ 2

Re: Security systems

delete me.

Sun Jul 27, 2008 at 01:23:00 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

Unfortunately, coin metal is poisonous to much aquatic life.

- derumi (del-me)
"Bobby Fischer? Man, that guy is crazy!" - Mike Tyson

3

^ 2

Feeding Time At The Mall Would Be A Real Draw.

MayorBob.

Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 10:04:21 AM EST

none

Especially if they combined the piranha with a new policy on dealing with kids with saggy pants loitering at the mall.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

4

chop his hand off

wetkarma.

Sun Jul 27, 2008 at 04:45:19 AM EST

5.00 (astute, astute)

I'm having a hard time seeing how this is not a crime. The amount is not relevant to the issue of criminality.  Mall management is merely taking a 'broken window' approach to crime enforcement. No one is outraged when wallmart prosecutes someone for shoplifting some piece of chinese manufactured plastic doo-dad -- so the idea that "its only .42c" carries little weight.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

6

^ 4

Wal Mart: 42c Not A Crime

thefadd.

Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 02:52:36 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

Except that Wal-mart actually has a specific (although well hidden) corporate policy not to prosecute anyone who steals less than $25 worth of merchandise because...it's an economic waste.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

7

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Re: Wal Mart: 42c Not A Crime

wetkarma.

Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:24:18 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Indeed, prosecuting such an offense is very likely to be an economic waste of resources and walmart's (changed) strategy is based on that evaluation. No argument from me. However there is still 'method to the madness' of prosecuting crimes like say tossing bubblegum on the sidewalk. It not only creates a clean sidewalk, but has networking effects of an orderly society. A certain argument can be made that turning a blind eye to this would be encouraging other petty crimes - from pick pocketing to shoplifting. The mall has an obligation to its stakeholders (i.e. the stores) to reinforce an environment which supports commerce not vagrancy.

Now I'm not the biggest advocate of throwing little orphan annie (or in this case Annie's Uncle Gus) in jail for stealing some spare change; but its not -my- spare change. If I want people to respect my property, its only fair to respect theirs. As such if the mall wants to prosecute, I say the government is obligated to do so.

Were it ever to come to a jury trial, I'd probably exercise my right to jury nullification, but I'd still think the act was a crime.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

13

^ 4

Get with the times

Lou.

Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:11:39 PM EST

4.00 (funny)

Chopping off a hand is so old fashioned...so biblical there has to be a better way.

How about this:  Give him a fine, say $50.  Plus, give him the money to pay it.  The twist?  The money is at the bottom a fountain and he has to collect the money with his mouth and he can't come up until he has collected every cent.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

8

^ 4

Re: chop his hand off

songofthepogo.

Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:00:54 PM EST

none

i'm curious to know if you'd feel any less strongly about it if, for example, the fountain were in a public park and had no signage indicating that coins were intended for charity.

9

^ 8

Re: chop his hand off

wetkarma.

Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 05:56:01 AM EST

none

Sure if it was in a public park, I'd view the case differently. Were the case in a public park, I'd see it as the equivalent of picking up a penny off the street. There's a difference between taking cash off the street and taking it out of my spare change bowl at home.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

11

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Re: chop his hand off

songofthepogo.

Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 07:43:49 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

that might explain the difference in our points of view of the situation as it is presented in the writeup.  to me, the disparity between a fountain in a public park and a fountain in a shopping mall is not that great.  granted, the mall is a private property, but one that exists with the purpose of inviting as much of the public into it as possible.  it's only slightly more private than a park.  had there been no sign indicating the coins in the fountain were intended for charity, i'm guessing there would've been little, if any, issue at all associated with Mujzer's actions.

i am further of the opinion that it was a poor way for the charity to solicit donations.  the donations should have been secured, rather than kept in a fountain.  it is not unheard of for people to take coins from a fountain and those actions, while they may be frowned upon, are not normally considered a crime.  a fountain is, therefore, a bad place to store coins if you expect them to stay there unmolested, and i don't think putting up a sign is a sufficient safeguard.  i know i probably sounds like i'm blaming the victim, here, and perhaps i am, though that's not my intent.

i'm not trying to excuse Mujzer's actions, as i hope i made clear in my earlier post.  i would have preferred that he left the coins alone.  i don't think, though, what he did merited his being charged and arrested.  as you said, there is a difference between taking cash off the street and taking it out of your spare change bowl at home. i think Mujzer's actions fall far short of burglary (for which i would definitely expect him to be arrested, regardless of the quantity of change he took from your change bowl).  to me, it's more like he walked into a doctor's waiting room, saw a bowl of candy that had a sign on it saying, "candy is for patients only" and took a few pieces.  uncool?  yes, definitely.  arrestable?  in my opinion, no.

12

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Re: chop his hand off

thefadd.

Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 08:54:29 PM EST

4.50 (interesting, interesting)

Good points. Without excusing Mujzer's actions, I'd also argue that no one really takes charitable solicitations through fountains seriously. People throwing pennies into wells and then fountains is an age old concept. You make a wish and toss the coin. Are people writing these coins off as charitable contributions on their IRS forms? I highly doubt it. The fact that the money is given to charity only even happens because if the mall didn't clean the fountain out, it'd overflow with money eventually.

I'll take an example. Every year at my elementary school, the sixth grade organized a penny fair as a trip fund raiser. Each sixth grader had to come up with an activity that the other grades could come around and participate in for a penny or two. When it came our turn, I remembered the previous year everyone in my class coming back from the penny fair with tons of extra pennies so I thought, "how can we get people to spend all those extra pennies instead of taking them back home where they clearly weren't wanted anyway." Half the people just threw them away. So I built a wishing well. My teacher was extremely disappointed that I came up with such a limited, uncreative activity and asked me how I expected to get people to spend money on such a silly idea. Day of the penny fair came and I was actually sick but they set my idea up with the rest in the gym anyway. Turned out my idea worked itself. While everyone else busily manned their stations, mine quietly raked in all that unspent cash effort-free and out earned every other activity combined. We raised a record $382.17 that year. And that's a crapload of pennies.

What's the moral of my story? People don't expect shit in return when they throw money into a standing body of water. They don't expect it to go to charity. They don't care if someone else takes it. They just want to be freakin rid of that useless change. I'm certain the mall didn't place the fountain there as a charitable effort. First came the fountain, then came the coins then came the what the fuck do we do with all these damn coins moment. They give it to their kid and tell their kid to make a wish. When you take money out of a fountain--even if you're giving it to charity--you're stealing the dreams of babes and there isn't a higher offense in the court of karma.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

10

^ 8

Worlds cleanest fountain

Lou.

Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 08:17:06 AM EST

none

If it was just an outside fountain with now signage, my guess is that any coins would be hoovered several times a day by homeless folks looking to buy food or homeowners trying to make the mortgage.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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