Etcetera

Haunted By Perversity: Grammar Nazis Befoul National Historic Landmark

MayorBob.

Posted to Etcetera on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 02:14:17 PM EST (promoted by 1fastdog). RSS.

Anyone who's spent any time on the internet knows the world is made up of three types of people. The first two types are those who use proper grammar in expressing themselves and those who don't. The third type is commonly referred to as a Grammar Nazi. Drifting from chat rooms to discussion sites, they jump all over misspellings, faulty diction, or violations of basic rules of grammar. Many people are less than appreciative of the Grammar Nazi's attention, hence the name. But, some people appreciate that Grammar Nazis sometimes are right and have their place. The New York Times gives their in-house Grammar Nazi a podium from which to operate.

The Times should be expected to hew to the highest standards of grammar. You can always ignore the people who litter up web sites with their grammatical nits. But, if you meet up with Grammar Nazis in real life, it can be quite a different thing.

Jeff Deck of Somerville, MA and Benjamin Herson of Virginia Beach, VA are two self-admitted Grammar Nazis. Only they've graduated from policing the internet to policing meat space violations as part of a group Deck formed - the Typo Eradication Advancement League (TEAL). It started as a fun thing, going from town to town, stamping "out as many typos as we can find, in public signage and other venues where innocent eyes may be befouled by vile stains on the delicate fabric of our language." When they got to the Grand Canyon National Park, things went from fun to criminal really fast.

When the pair climbed to the top of the Desert View Watchtower, they came upon a sign, hand-drawn by architect Mary Colter well over a half century ago. Yes, it had some errors on it. So they took some White-Out and a permanent marker and touched it up a bit. It turned out the National Park System (NPS) wasn't all that appreciative of their effort; according to the NPS the sign was a National Historic Landmark and is considered "unique and irreplaceable."

The pair was found guilty of defacing public property and will be on probation for the next year, during which they are banned from any NPS property and from modifying any public signs. They also owe the government (US)$3,035. If you're wondering if this has cured the pair from doing this in the future, think again. Deck said after they corrected the Colter sign, he noticed the existence of a non-word -- "emense." Alas, he didn't have the time to fix that one and, according to Deck, "I think I shall be haunted by that perversity (emense)."

Tags: written by MayorBob, edited by 1fastdog, grammar, Grammar Nazi, typo, correction, National Park Service, Grand Canyon, crime (all tags)

This story: 25 comments (1 from subqueue)
Post a Comment
1

Perhaps...

port1080.

Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 07:05:48 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

...an "editor" shouldn't be saying this, but language is fluid and grammar nazis need to get over themselves and get a life.  Sure, we need a general set of rules so people can write and speak in mutually intelligible ways, but they should be viewed more as suggestions or guides rather than line in the sand rules.  Usage can and does change over time, and there's no getting away from that.  This is especially true with a bastardized language like English, which draws its roots from Germanic, Scandinavian, and Romance tongues and has more than the usual amount of exceptions, multi-definition words, alternative spellings, etc.  Many of those irregularities, which give English its exceptional level of nuance, developed out of exactly the sort of "mistakes" that people like Deck and Herson love to harp about.  One wonders why such things upset them so much - perhaps mommy did not praise them enough when they won the third grade spelling bee?

2

^ 1

First We Kill All The Grammar Nazis!

MayorBob.

Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 08:22:29 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Not really.  As we touched on in a recent discussion of a similar topic, it's really a mixed bag.  On the one hand, adherence to niggling grammatical and spelling might end the transmission of an idea, especially for someone who lacks sufficient skills to get it right.  On the other hand, too much laxness allowed results in incomprehensible garble in many cases.  I believe an editor or an educator is doing a disservice to a writer not to correct where appropriate.  So, put me down as a firm advocate for writers striving to adhere to some basic rules of grammar and spelling; it cuts down on the amount of time wasted scratching your head asking "what the fuck did he/she mean anyhow?"  I've never minded a correction from a teacher and I'll never complain if an editor takes what I write and makes it crisper, cleaner and clearer.

The problem here is that Deck and Herson and their TEALmates are neither educators nor editors.  They appear to be a group of self-absorbed, self-important prigs with too much time on their hands.  I hope they learned their lesson but, from the sound of regretting not correcting "emense" it doesn't really sound like it.  Perhaps Deck, Herson and the rest of the TEAL crew ought to consider getting jobs as English teachers.  That way they'd be able to do the thing they love to do and get paid for it.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

24

^ 1

Re: Perhaps...

skeeter1.

Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:35:56 AM EST

none

"...an "editor" shouldn't be saying this, but language is fluid and grammar nazis need to get over themselves and get a life."

I'm something of a grammarian, and a former magazine editor (small magazine, only 1.4M issues/mo), but I try not to be a prick about it in the web.  My own typing skills aren't that great sometimes, particularly when I've had some wine.  

On some of the sites I visit, the grammar and spelling are often incorrect, but I can usually understand what they're saying.  

Ocenujem vasu laskavost,

(Yes, I like Slovak, too)

Skeeter

there's only one way to find out...

3

Re: Haunted By Perversity

skeptic.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 at 09:09:15 AM EST

none

Standards of English usage are not very good these days.  The inappropriate use of the word "real" as an adjective, for example ("he is a real good speller!") has become so widespread that it seems to be ineradicable.  Important works of literature and music often have grammatical errors.  Does anyone remember the song by Paul McCartney and Wings, "Live And Let Die" which contains the very bizarre phrase, "And in this ever-changing world in which we live in"?  Horrendous.  But there's nothing we can do about it.  Professional meteorologists broadcasting on prestigious networks still do not pronounce the word "temperature" correctly.  I know of some professional jewelers who do not pronounce the word "jewelry" correctly.  I find this annoying.  It's not just English, either.  I recently was watching a gardening show on TV in which the professional gardening adviser referred to nematodes as microscopic insects (they are, of course, worms).  A major news item carried by the international press referred to beryllium as a "toxic heavy metal" (it is, of course, a light metal).  And so forth.

But, in the face of all this error, the prudent course of action is usually to just ignore it.  People will not appreciate your efforts at accuracy unless they have actually requested your help.  Otherwise, people seldom want to be corrected.

Some errors, of course, have their own historical significance, such as the sign that was foolishly and illegally corrected by the Grammar Nazis currently under discussion.  I could also mention the plays of William Shakespeare.  It would be perfectly possible to translate Shakespeare into correct, grammatical 21st century English.  That would be much easier to read.  But the poetry of the original would be diminished (although strictly speaking, a sufficiently talented translator might be able to produce a very poetic translation - but even then, we are used to Shakespeare, who is the most quoted writer in the English language).  Consequently, Shakespeare is usually read and performed as originally written.

Spider Robinson has suggested that the only way to escape the persistent conflicts of the human race which result from traditional hatred that exists between long-opposed groups who have, in many cases, thousands (or at least hundreds)of years of accumulated grievances which can never be forgotten or forgiven, is to eradicate all historical records and start over, teaching a new generation nothing about actual human history or about the various ethnic or historical groups to which they belong, but instead presenting a sanitized version of reality in which all people accept each other with perfect equality as members of the human race, and always have, from the earliest existence of the species; such an illusion could become self-fulfilling.  (This also requires that there is at most one religion that anyone ever hears about, although no religion at all would work quite well.)  

Similarly, if we really wanted a world in which English is used correctly, we would have to wipe out the accumulated centuries of misused or eccentric English, all the ungrammatical musical recordings ("I can't get no satisfaction!") and plays, novels, poems, advertisements, etc., and create an artificial culture in which everything, including all public utterances, all recordings or publications or broadcasts or movies or signs, contain only grammatically correct English.  (I do not envision that all the old ungrammatical works simply disappear, rather, they would just be revised as needed.)  We could then create an environment in which grammatical error would always seem to be unacceptable to pretty much everybody.  But of course, this scheme would be extremely difficult to implement, and goes beyond even what the normal Grammar Nazi would advocate (although it could be conveniently combined with Spider Robinson's scheme to alleviate conflict between traditionally opposed political or religious factions).  I am sure it will never actually be done.  So, grammatical error is pretty much an unavoidable imperfection of existence.  And certainly, there are worse problems for us to worry about.  But I can still dream.

4

^ 3

Re: Hunted By Perversity

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 at 10:01:33 AM EST

5.00 (obnoxious)

The inappropriate use of the word "real" as an adjective, for example ("he is a real good speller!")
Adverb.

But, in the face of all this error, the prudent course of action...
Are you cool enough, skeptic, to use a conjunction at the beginning of a sentence? Yes, I think you are. Are you cool enough to use a conjunction at the beginning of a paragraph? Dream on, baby.

6

^ 4

more perversity

skeptic.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 at 01:59:19 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Actually, you must have deliberatedly changed the title from haunted to hunted.  You probably think that you are perversely hunting me.  But I think that it would be more accurate to describe your activities as perverse haunting.

7

^ 6

Re: mere perversity

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 at 06:04:33 PM EST

none

You probably think that you are perversely hunting me
"Perversity" is a noun. Nice try, but I am never, ever careles with my words.

10

^ 7

Re: mere perversity

JimmyHavok.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 at 07:06:54 PM EST

none

"Perversity" is a noun

"Perverse" is an adjective, and thus "perversely" is no perversion, but merely an adverb.

I am never, ever careles with my words

Not never. No, no, no.  Nor yur spelin.g  Nuh uh.  Nope.

11

^ 10

Re: woosh!

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 at 07:10:08 PM EST

3.50 (obnoxious)

* <---Joke





Ә  <---Havok's thick head.

12

^ 11

@<woosh!

JimmyHavok.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 at 07:22:53 PM EST

none

Phew...yer stinking up the room.

13

^ 7

careless words

skeptic.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:23:10 AM EST

none

You may never be careless with your words, but you are very careless with your opinions, as our previous arguments clearly show.

14

^ 13

Re: careless words

zyxwvutsr.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:04:28 AM EST

none

Really? Where did I have a careless argument?

15

^ 14

Re: careless words

skeptic.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:33:19 AM EST

none

Most recently, on the basis of perfunctory research on your part, you concluded not only that gender re-assignment surgery is useless, but also that my own expressed confidence in it proves that everything I have ever said on this site is wrong.  No one jumps to conclusions more athletically than you do.  Previously, when I proposed that regions having a majority population that desires secession should be allowed to secede, you thought that this would require us to repeal the 14th amendment, which actually has nothing to do with secession. That point required an amazing amount of explanation on my part before you stopped arguing about it.  No wonder mayor Bob thinks my comments are too long.  There are several other, even earlier examples, but it would be tedious to try to list them all.

16

^ 15

Re: careless words

zyxwvutsr.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 02:29:28 PM EST

none

...you concluded not only that gender re-assignment surgery is useless...
No, I argued that your assertion that "after the gender re-assignment surgery, the resulting transsexual person is perfectly sane" is not supported by evidence. I actually cited an article about a meta study that countered your view.

...my own expressed confidence in it proves that everything I have ever said on this site is wrong
I only said that you sometimes appear to believe things that are not true, not that you're always wrong.

Previously, when I proposed that regions having a majority population that desires secession should be allowed to secede, you thought that this would require us to repeal the 14th amendment, which actually has nothing to do with secession
The 14th Amendment has to do with the federal government's responsibility to protect the rights of all citizens. The right to remain a citizen is fundamental to that charge. I quit arguing when you continually refused to concede that basic, obvious point.

17

^ 16

Re: careless words

stevetherobot.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 03:09:56 PM EST

none

The right to remain a citizen is fundamental to that charge

Living in a state that secedes would not necessarily cause someone to stop being a citizen.

19

^ 17

Re: careless words

zyxwvutsr.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 08:21:19 PM EST

none

Living in a state that secedes would not necessarily cause someone to stop being a citizen
It would mean that your rights as a citizen would no longer be protected. Sure, you could still have a passport and all that, but not the more useful accouterments of citizenship like rights under the law.

18

^ 16

Re: careless words

JimmyHavok.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 03:45:01 PM EST

none

I actually cited an article about a meta study that countered your view.

Yeah, that metastudy showed that 80% of transexuals were not unhappy with the results.  I guess by your lights, that means they were insane.

20

^ 18

Re: careless words

zyxwvutsr.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 08:26:36 PM EST

none

...that metastudy showed that 80% of transexuals were not unhappy with the results
No, James, it said that 1/5th of post-op transgender patients regretted changing their sex. It did not indicate that 80% "were not unhappy," whatever that means.

21

^ 20

Re: careless words

JimmyHavok.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:44:55 PM EST

none

It's a binary situation.  Either you are in one state (regret) or you are in another (no regret).  The regrets can have a degree of intensity, but no regrets?  That's all the same intensity.

All that metastudy showed is that there were a minority of sex changes that led to regrets.

whatever that means

English is a subtle and difficult language.  I encourage you to continue your study of it.

23

^ 16

Re: careless words

skeptic.

Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 09:16:13 AM EST

none

Of course, you quit arguing because I refused to concede the point, not because you understood anything that I was saying, which would have been completely out of character for you.  It is not surprising that you still do not agree that either of the examples that I mention show any error on your part.  That's the kind of guy you are, never capable of perceiving your own errors no matter how elaborately they are explained to you.

5

^ 4

Re: Hunted By Perversity

skeptic.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 at 01:38:57 PM EST

none

You forgot to correct the subject line, which should have read "haunted by perversity" not "hunted".  I was going to comment that I am being haunted by zxywvutsr, but then I realized that the reference fails, due to the typographical error in the subject line.  Although it's still true that I am being haunted by zwywvutsr.

Of course, I meant adverb.  

And no, I do not need to satisfy your criteria for being cool (whatever those may be), in order to start a paragraph with a conjunction.  I know what I am doing.

8

^ 5

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 at 06:12:37 PM EST

none

And no, I do not need to satisfy your criteria for being cool (whatever those may be), in order to start a paragraph with a conjunction
Nothing prevents you from beginning a paragraph with a conjunction; that is true. You don't need my permission or approval or acceptance.

But it lacks panache.

9

^ 3

Re: Haunted By Perversity

JimmyHavok.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 at 07:00:37 PM EST

5.00 (informative, funny)

The inappropriate use of the word "real" as an adjective, for example ("he is a real good speller!") has become so widespread that it seems to be ineradicable.

It's a slight corruption of "rilly:" "he's a rilly gud spellr."

22

My pet peeve

joshv.

Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 09:16:11 AM EST

none

In spoken English, I simply cannot listen to people who insist on using "actually" every other world.  Usuaully you encounter this when somebody is recounting factual information.  I've had more than a few tour guides who've suffered from this affliction.

25

Re: Haunted By Perversity: Grammar Nazis Befoul Na

thefadd.

Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 08:38:42 PM EST

none

A ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Throw them all in jail!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

This story: 25 comments (1 from subqueue)
Post a Comment