Scoop

Here comes the story of the hurricane: Katrina Redux

pO157.

Posted to Scoop on Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 06:45:09 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

Three years after the unprovoked assault of Hurricane Katrina upon the besotted city of New Orleans quality rum drinks and 190 Antifreezes have begun to flow again. At least, until Monday when meteorologists warn that the city is at risk of another major disaster.

Although several days away, with a "hurricane cone" spreading across the Gulf, the storm has already done damage to several Caribbean nations and has people in New Orleans afraid it will make landfall above the Big Easy as a powerful Category 3 or 4 hurricane. Even if the Hurricane completely misses New Orleans it has the potential to wreck havoc on the fuel industry and spike prices again. Oil rigs in the gulf are already being evacuated and analysts warn that the damage from a Category 3 (or higher) Gustav may easily rival Katrina. As a precaution, oil prices have already risen several dollars on the barrel.

While the city residents have been buying up water, generators and supplies, hurricane experts said was too early to completely panic. "We know it's going to head into the Gulf. After that, we're not sure where it's heading," said Rebecca Waddington, a meteorologist at the National Hurricane Center. "For that reason, everyone in the Gulf needs to be monitoring the storm."City of New Orleans officials are doing just that, urging everybody to get a plan together, alert the city if they will need help evacuating and  not wait until the last minute to get out. The city policy is to begin evacuation is a category 3 or higher hurricane is within 72 hours of landfall.

The general that helped lead the response to Katrina recently called on all Americans to be sure they are prepared for whatever is to come. Hopefully the citizens of New Orleans (or others along the gulf) will not need their preparations, but Gustav comes with force having enough bottled water may be the least of the cities worries. Residents worry about the ability of the city to bounce back from a second hurricane, only 3 years after the Big Easy was almost destroyed by another.

In other news the GOP is worried that Hurricane Gustav could overshadow its upcoming convention. Gulf GOP stars have already announced they will skip the festivities if it appears that their constituents may be at risk.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by pO157, hurricane, New Orleans, Gulf of Mexico, Oil, Republicans (all tags)

This story: 40 comments (7 from subqueue)
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1

Re:

pO157.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 08:56:04 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

Unfortunately the track now has it heading straight for eastern Louisiana, but it is expected to curve off to the left once it makes landfall. I hope that helps a bit. Hopefully the advance notice will provide everybody the time they need to make arrangements if this does turn out to be another Worst Case Scenario.

3

I remote viewed this

Steve Urkel.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 01:19:43 PM EST

3.50 (funny)

Picture a scenario where New Orleans is hit again, the levees break again, and then one of those Jazz airline flights crashes into the flooded streets and everyone drowns because they have no life preservers.

2

the future of New Orleans

skeptic.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 09:45:24 AM EST

none

New Orleans may or may not survive Hurricane Gustav, and it will be very interesting to see how well the post-Katrina reconstruction protects the city.  But there is every reason to expect that there will continue to be hurricanes every year which will endanger populated areas, and also to expect that these hurricanes are going to be more frequent and more destructive as global warming continues.  And although the human race at some point may succeed in reversing the trend of ever-increasing carbon dioxide emission, there is no doubt that global warming will continue for many years to come.  It is not something that we can reverse rapidly (at least, not without radical means such as intercepting large amounts of sunlight in outer space, which has been suggested by scientists but which does not have any significant degree of political support).  So, despite all the optimistic people who have worked to rebuild New Orleans, I do not expect that city to survive in the long term.

21

^ 2

Re: the future of New Orleans

profwhat.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 11:13:16 PM EST

none

Surely it is possible to rebuild New Orleans in a way that it can survive annual hurricanes.  Maybe you don't rebuild all the buildings in the same place, and maybe you get better levees; but the thought of abandoning an entire city is too difficult to accept.

31

^ 21

no choice but to abandon

wetkarma.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:36:51 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

So in the US-focused nature of the news cycle, its worth mentioning that these storms affect caribbean countries far more than they do the USA. In Jamaica the southern coast line has changed over the years such that neighborhoods have been wiped out during the storm surge and key infrastructure such as bridges destroyed.

Now to put that bridge in context -- it basically connects the south-east of Jamaica to the capital kingston and is the only route available into the eastern portion of the island. Loss of that bridge means that farmers won't be able to sell their crops, people won't be able to go to work, children to school..etc.

This is merely another blow in a long line of blows which serves to permanently cripple an economy.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

22

^ 21

Re: the future of New Orleans

port1080.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 08:52:38 AM EST

4.50 (informative, interesting)

While it may be possible to save New Orleans, the cost might be prohibitive, as the city is sinking.  Basically, we've created a Catch22 situation with all the levies and damns and flood control.  All of that stuff has stopped the natural siltification process of the Mississippi, which has led to the gradual degradation of the natural barriers against hurricanes and other bad storms that protected the city in its earlier years.  It is also making hundreds of miles of Louisiana coastline increasingly more vulnerable to simply being washed away to sea by the next big storm.  I was watching a documentary on Katrina the other day on TV - one of the academics they interviewed postulated that the only way to save the area was to literally build a levy around the entire Louisiana coast (a project that would have to rival or surpass anything the Dutch have ever done).  The cost would be stunning - probably far more than it would cost to just relocate the city.

37

^ 22

Re: the future of New Orleans

Shy Elf.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 01:16:24 AM EST

5.00 (interesting, interesting)

New Orleans is sinking and the global ocean level is rising as a result of global warming, but both effects are much slower than your article would indicate.

The levees around the Mississippi keep the silt confined.  With flow concentrated in the channel instead of being allowed to expand into multiple channels,the silt stays suspended until it reaches the ocean, where waves keep it suspended until it falls off the continental shelf.  It doesn't get deposited to build marshland anymore.

If you cut a deep channel in the freshwater marsh, it allows salt water intrusion which kills the surrounding plants.  Without the plant roots there is greatly increased erosion which expands the channel.  Eventually, everything seaward of the channel dies.  And there have been many, many deep channels cut in the Louisiana swamps for navigation, pipelines and oil and gas drilling.

As if this weren't enough, the Mississippi is currently cutting a new channel down the Atchafalaya river, which in some future flood will cause failure of the control structures and will capture the flow of the Mississippi south of Red River Landing, cutting off the flow of silt completely.

If you were willing to spend the money, you could create an island called "Atlantis" in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico and build a city there, and protect it from the ocean, but this doesn't mean it's cost-effective to do so.  If we're going to save New Orleans at a reasonable cost, we're going to have to totally change the way we manage the lower Mississippi, and it's very hard to see how we can do that and keep the navigation channel open.

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^ 21

Re: the future of New Orleans

skeptic.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 08:37:11 AM EST

none

As it turns out, New Orleans is going to survive hurricane Gustav, not because it is now hurricane-proof, but just because the hurricane passed somewhat south of the city, rather than hitting it directly, and because the intensity had declined to category 2 by the time it reached the city (having previously been as high as the maximum, category 5, when it hit Cuba).  There is no way to know how many years New Orleans has left.  But I wouldn't want to move there.

4

You Want To Become A Storm Tracker?

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 09:26:38 AM EST

none

But, you're either too far away or don't want to get soaked, go to this link and keep current on the track Gustav is taking. Not that they've officially declared an evacuation yet but, if I was living between Gulfport and Galveston, I'd definitely be thinking about moving inland real soon.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

5

^ 4

Opportunities

Lou.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 10:30:32 AM EST

none

Some see a storm while blacks see it as a change to "loot" and whites a chance to "forage".

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

6

^ 5

Re: Opportunities

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:32:09 AM EST

3.00 (obnoxious)

Perhaps you hadn't heard that the "black looter / white forager as an indication of racism" meme was thoroughly debunked? Or are you aware, but just want to stir up racial animosity for some reason?

7

^ 6

Re: Opportunities

Lou.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:36:53 AM EST

none

I missed the debunking...got a link?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

8

^ 7

Re: Opportunities

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:50:27 AM EST

none

9

^ 8

Re: Opportunities

Lou.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:15:28 PM EST

none

That link supports what I said...one picture shows a black couple was looting (the caption), and another picture shows a white couple foraging (the caption).  Where did I say anything about racism.  I'm talking about pictures...what are you talking about?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

10

^ 9

Re: Opportunities

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:28:46 PM EST

2.50 (funny, obnoxious)

Where did I say anything about racism
Ah, so you're the racist. My mistake: I thought you were trying to point out racism in others.

11

^ 10

Re: Opportunities

Lou.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:31:27 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant, funny)

I thought you conservatives had a sense of humor.  Jeez.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

12

^ 11

Re: Opportunities

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:14:44 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

I'm not a conservative.

13

^ 12

What are you then?

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:17:47 PM EST

5.00 (astute, funny, funny)

Borrowing from Steve Urkel's lexicon, are you an argumentalist?

Illegitimi non carborundum.

14

^ 13

Re: What am I then?

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:35:55 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

The term is "sophist."

15

^ 12

Re: Opportunities

Lou.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:36:12 PM EST

none

So you admit you don't have a sense of humor then?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

16

^ 15

Re: Opportunities

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:38:56 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

That's right, Lou, I take everything seriously.

17

^ 16

Re: Opportunities

Lou.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:46:14 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

I can see that...please for you own sake, go see a comedy this weekend. ;-)

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

18

^ 17

Re: Opportunities

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:58:45 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

I hope he doesn't rent a copy of "Sophist's Choice" starring Meryl Streep. That movie is a total downer.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

20

^ 18

Re: Opportunities

Lou.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 03:24:36 PM EST

5.00 (astute, brilliant, brilliant)

Isn't that the one where she has to choose between Ad Hominem and False Dilemma?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

19

If You Manage To Avoid Gustav.

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:51:31 PM EST

none

Look out, because Tropical Storm Hanna is moving along behind Gustav.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

36

^ 19

Re: If You Manage To Avoid Gustav.

Shy Elf.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 12:34:46 AM EST

none

Not to mention Ike, which is heading back into the Gulf and possibly to New Orleans, though the forecast that far out is a nearly random guess.

23

Let the market decide

pO157.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 09:46:11 AM EST

none

Why not abolish the National Flood Insurance program? Demand coverage for flooding by homeowners' insurance and let those companies adjust their premiums accordingly. Eventually the problem will work itself out. Preferably on a Friday.

25

^ 23

Just so you know...

Lou.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:55:18 AM EST

none

Why not abolish the National Flood Insurance program?

Flood insurance ain't cheap...and least in these parts, whether you should get it or not depends on your mortgagee.  That being said, I doubt any carriers would even offer it unless done so as a condition to do business in a particular state.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

26

^ 25

Re: Just so you know...

pO157.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 11:01:52 AM EST

none

Right. The problem is that it may be unwise to live in certain places like New Orleans (there are parts of the city above sea level, am told, so it might be cool to live there) with current construction. So why is there a national flood program to encourage people to continually put their lives on the line every year and then have the taxpayers (indirectly) pay for the reconstruction?

If people were required to get their coverage through a private carrier costs would force a bunch of people out of the area to places where they would be safer. People would still have the right to live in the area, just fully at their own expense and in construction up to their insurance companies standards. It's a more palatable solution (for me) than either A) eminent domain-ing entire regions of a city, B) demanding everybody move out by governmental fiat or C) watching thousands die every time a category 3 rolls on in.

Put it this way. When I moved in I knew I was buying a home in a high burglary, high car theft, high arson prone area. I decided to buy anyway to help stabilize a transitioning area, plus it was cheap. Would it be fair for the people of this country to subsidize my expenses when I knew what I was getting into?

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^ 26

Re: Just so you know...

Lou.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 11:33:11 AM EST

5.00 (funny)

So why is there a national flood program to encourage people to continually put their lives on the line every year and then have the taxpayers (indirectly) pay for the reconstruction?

It's not quite that simple.  In order for a homeowner to even get flood insurance (regardless of cost), his community must have a flood abatement/zoning plan with the NFIP.  Is this plan assiduously followed?  I don't know...but it's like they always say...

Underwriters! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the rules of the National Flood Service, Dude, at least it's a plan.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

28

^ 27

Re: Just so you know...

pO157.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:28:41 PM EST

none

Why can't the private insurance companies do a better job than the .gov? For example, my father in law was just notified that his vacation cabin will not have its insurance continued because of various reasons (all of them completely understandable) with the structure and its current state of repair. The insurance company sent an inspector the whole way out to a relatively rural area to do an exterior site check of his building and got a detailed report.

Wouldn't it be better for a private company to do this for flood risk? They could decide which structures are better prepare for a flood, etc much better than some random bureaucrats behind a desk in a far off city. There is greater accountability and better efficiency in the private sector than in government. Why not make use of it, and decouple predictable disasters from slamming the public treasury?

I guess what I am saying is I have more faith in Lou than I do in the government to accurately quantitate the risk and enumerate a fair premium.

29

^ 28

Re: Just so you know...

Lou.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:55:11 PM EST

none

Why can't the private insurance companies do a better job than the .gov?

I don't know that they can't...part of it may be that they don't want to.  Flood insurance is a risky business (npi).  Unlike with a fire where there are clear indications of damage, water damaged parts of the home can be a staging ground for all kinds of bad shit*.  So, not only do you have a difficult and expensive clean-up project...but say you own a flood damaged two family home...or you sell the flood damaged (but repaired) home...now your insurance company is open to liability claims if any of the mold remains and someone gets sick.  The companies I have worked with are hugely squeamish when it comes to water damage...even non-flood.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

30

^ 29

Re: Just so you know...

pO157.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:06:19 PM EST

none

Yeah Stachybotrys is a bitch. It is becoming such a cottage industry --- I've seen home "test kits" for it in hardware shops for $10-20 where the cost of materials is probably just pennies of that. Yeah. If I was unscrupulous I'd think about going into business marketing some of that.

Anywho, the point is the insurance cos wouldn't want to get involved. So the premiums would be prohibitively high. Just add "floods" to the HO-3 form (sorry if my insurance lingo is rusty, I haven't talked with my mom about that stuff in ages, and she tries not to have insurance flashbacks) and let the underwriters adjust things (they are the people who set the rates, right?).  The cost goes way up, and people don't live there anymore. It's win/win.

Hell, if the HO-3 already covers crap like Volcanic eruptions then they could cover flood damage, right? Just adjust the premiums accordingly.

32

^ 30

Re: Just so you know...

Lou.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:37:00 PM EST

none

and people don't live there anymore. It's win/win.

New York City, Long Island, Savannah, Jacksonville, Miami, St. Petersburg (my home town), New Orleans, Houston (too close to New Orleans), San Diego, Los Angeles,  every single town along potentially any river or creek.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

33

^ 32

Re: Just so you know...

pO157.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:47:19 PM EST

none

How many of them are build primarily below sea level in an area that gets actively attacked by major hurricanes on a regular basis? There is a difference between flood insurance in case the creek or lake spills into your garage and flood insurance covering an entire city needing to be rebuilt every 25 years. Unless I'm wrong, very few of the cities on the list require the walls and levees that N'awlins does.

Would a re-insurance company cover an insurance agency (I hope I am using the right terminology here, like I said, its been ages) that wrote a policy on every single structure in a New Orleans like city just as the Feds do?

34

^ 33

Re: Just so you know...

Lou.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 06:17:53 PM EST

none

There is a difference between flood insurance in case the creek or lake spills into your garage and flood insurance covering an entire city needing to be rebuilt every 25 years.

Overall, not really.  Floods is floods.  All that comes into play is the premium based on the type of flood zone.  9th Ward?  Get out a big check.  Turner Maine along the Androscoggin river (a very well controlled river)? Not so much. Towns along the Mississippi? Good luck. Issues concerning the insured aside, it really comes down to the flood zone.

When we take into account the lenders, it get a little more complex.  You could buy a home within a certain distance of the Andro and the bank probably won't care.  Buy a home just about anywhere in the Hamptons in New Hampshire and the bank will probably require a flood policy before they'll sign.

I can't really speak about the re-insurance aspect since it concerns cars more than property where I sell...and even then much of it happens behind the scenes.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

35

^ 34

Why Private Carriers Can't Insure Floods

Shy Elf.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 12:31:19 AM EST

4.00 (informative)

I'm sure the riot and volcanic eruption clauses are allowed simply because they are viewed as being so unlikely as to be a chump's bet, and that they'll be removed permanently the first time we see them actually needed, as in for example after Ranier's next eruption.

Insurance companies with the exception of Lloyd's partners aren't gamblers.  They're not in the business  of making good gambling bets but of averaging risk.  No matter where you live, you stand a reasonably predictable chance of your home being damaged by fire or by wind or tornado, and this occurs in many separate events, which means that an insurance company can average their risk by selling policies nationwide.  If you insure people everywhere, you can set your rates reasonably close to your loss level and still not have a lot of risk.

Contrast this with the worst example, war.  There's a very small chance every year that half the US will be destroyed in a nuclear war.  In order to cover this risk, the insurance company needs capital equal to half the value of all the homes it insures.  The risk is too unpredictable, so they write it out of the policies.  Nobody wants to have to pay out the year a large fraction of southern California or San Francisco gets destroyed by an earthquake, so they write it out even though the chance each year is rather small.  And the same thing goes for the year Saint Louis or New Orleans gets destroyed by flood.

Of course insuring a FEW homes for flood is fine, because then your loss risk is still small.  But to have to insure all of them?  Plenty of insurance companies would rather go out of business.

39

^ 35

Re: Why Private Carriers Can't Insure Floods

pO157.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 09:32:15 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

I'm sure the riot and volcanic eruption clauses are allowed simply because they are viewed as being so unlikely as to be a chump's bet, and that they'll be removed permanently the first time we see them actually needed, as in for example after Ranier's next eruption.

Well, that, and when Yellowstone goes there won't be a line for the claims adjuster to get in. There probably won't be any claims adjusters left. Or anybody else.

Understatement of the geologic era from the USGS on what would happen if a supervolcano explosion happened at Yellowstone:

The surrounding states of Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming would be affected, as well as other places in the United States and the world.

24

Mayor flees in panic!

pO157.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 09:49:30 AM EST

none

MSNBC is reporting over topping of the levees at the Industrial Canal barrier in New Orleans.

Perhaps "Better than Ezra" said it best: God save the King of New Orleans.

40

^ 24

Re: Mayor flees in panic!

thefadd.

Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 08:34:41 PM EST

none

Better than Ezra never said anything well.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

This story: 40 comments (7 from subqueue)
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