Politics

The Palin Shocker: McCain's New VP Choice [Breaking]

pO157.

Posted to Politics on Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 02:03:01 PM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

In a last minute decision, John McCain switched from his first announced choice for the VP slot to announce Alaska Governor Sarah Palin got the nod.

Senator McCain cited her bipartisan record, role in cleaning up corruption in the union's northernmost state, solid pro-life credentials, and her military experience as head of the Alaskan National Guard as some of the reasons for picking her.

The move is considered a shocker because Palin was considered by some to be too young, too inexperienced, and busy considering she just gave birth to a child with downs syndrome. On the other hand, some Republicans are already gung-ho about the choice. She will be the first Alaskan to run on a major national ticket.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by pO157, politics, 2008 Presidential Election, McCain, Alaska, FTW, 2008 election (all tags)

This story: 227 comments (1 from subqueue)
Post a Comment
1

Smacks of desperation or senility

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 02:26:33 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

What, exactly, are her qualifications?  This makes a mockery of McCain's criticism of Obama's lack of experience.  Obama has at least served on the national stage, has excellent academic credentials, and has clearly been preparing himself for the presidency for the last four years.  Palin has been the governor of one of the smallest states in the country (population-wise, obviously not geographically - but still, Alaska is actually smaller than Delaware in terms of population - WTF?) for less than two years.  She never even served as a state rep - she went from being the city mayor of a town of 5,500 people to being governor.  She has a B.A. in journalism (from the University of Idaho - I think pO157 may have something to say about the quality of that degree...), but no further academic credentials.  There is no evidence whatsoever that she is qualified to be president, and if she had run for president on her own terms she would have been laughed out of the smoke-filled back room before she even made her first fundraising pitch.  You might say that being governor is experience enough, but this is Alaska we're talking about.  There is a huge difference between running a small state government and a large state government.  Being governor of Texas or Massachusetts or California makes you qualified - but governor of Alaska?  Even Bill Clinton's time in Arkansas had him presiding over a state with 5.5 times the population of Alaska, and he did it for ten years, not two. Say what you will about Obama's choice of Biden, but he clearly has the chops to be president if need be.  The same statement does not obviously apply to Palin.  While it's macabre to say, it's perfectly reasonable to say that McCain's VP choice is very important.  There's no denying McCain's age, and even if he does serve two full terms, whoever his VP is will have a very good shot at winning the party nomination the next time it's open.  McCain's VP slot begs for a solid, well-vetted candidate with lots of experience who could easily step in and seamlessly take over if need be - not a lightweight from a backwater who has no experience whatsoever with large scale government administration.  I can't believe McCain went with her.  It's like a bad joke.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

4

^ 1

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

gerrymander.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 02:37:54 PM EST

4.75 (astute, funny, astute)

Say what you will about Obama's choice of Biden, but he clearly has the chops to be president if need be.

As opposed to Obama himself, who has Palin's level of credentials.

If she's not qualified to be Vice-President, what does that say about the Democratic nominee for President?

6

^ 4

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 02:49:01 PM EST

none

Well, for starters, I have always been somewhat unhappy about Obama's lack of experience - but that just makes me doubly unhappy about Palin, who makes Obama look like an elder statesman.  Obama has three years of US Senatorial experience, plus multiple years of experience in state government in Illinois (a state that has almost 20x the population of Alaska) before that, plus years of community organizational experience before that, plus a solid academic background which proves he is no intellectual lightweight.  On top of that, he proved himself by running a brilliant campaign to win the nomination, and (if we does will) will have further proven himself by running a brilliant campaign to win the Presidential election.  Palin, on the other hand, will become VP by riding McCain's coattails.  She could never have hoped to win the office own her own, and yet if she becomes VP she will be one heart attack away from being President.  Tell me how that could possibly inspire confidence in you?

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

11

^ 6

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

gerrymander.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 03:42:25 PM EST

4.50 (astute, interesting)

Obama has three years of US Senatorial experience

Did I miss the special election held in 2005 for Illinois senator? No. Obama has held office exactly as long as Palin: 8 years in the minors (she was a mayor), 2 in the majors. Both had lower level community positions before those.

a state that has almost 20x the population of Alaska

I fail to see how this matters.
solid academic background which proves he is no intellectual lightweight

This matters only to intellectuals -- who largely are already in the tank for Obama. Palin has a solid record of personal achievement -- which will matter to PUMAs, who aren't.

he proved himself by running a brilliant campaign to win the nomination

Please. He ran an OK campaign which greatly benefited from him being the other minority in a lackluster field, and from having no record to speak of to prevent him from being the progressive Left's darling. Had South Carolina's primary come even a week later, we'd be talking about the Clinton-McCain race.

if she becomes VP she will be one heart attack away from being President.

Fortunately, the man who would need to have that heart attack looks like he spends his free time wrestling alligators -- and winning.

16

^ 11

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:01:04 PM EST

none

Did I miss the special election held in 2005 for Illinois senator? No. Obama has held office exactly as long as Palin: 8 years in the minors (she was a mayor), 2 in the majors. Both had lower level community positions before those.

Obama was elected to the Senate in 2004 and came into office on January 4th 2005, so he actually has almost four years of Senatorial experience, but I didn't want to overstate my case.  Palin was elected in 2006 and came into office on December 4th, 2006, so she has a few months less than two years experience.  It's also laughable to compare Palin's experience as a Mayor of a town of 9,000 with Obama's experience as a representative for an Illinois state congressional district of over 650,000.  My hometown growing up had 12,000 people, and it's a rinky-dink rural town.  It's current mayor is a college student.  Being mayor of a small rural town doesn't count for squat in terms of experience.

a state that has almost 20x the population of Alaska. I fail to see how this matters.

Then you either haven't thought it through or you're being disingenuous.  Let me put in it business terms, since that may make more sense to you.  If you were hiring someone to be a CEO of a Fortune 500 corporation, and you had two candidates, one who was the executive of a small company employing 1000 people, and one who had been the CFO of a Fortune 500 firm but didn't  have executive experience, which would you consider the stronger candidate?

Fortunately, the man who would need to have that heart attack looks like he spends his free time wrestling alligators -- and winning.

Gene Upshaw looked like he could wrestle alligators too, right up until about three days before he died.  There's no guarantee McCain won't live another eight years, but the odds are definitely against.  Age catches up to you, no matter how careful you are or how good your conditioning is.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

43

^ 16

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

gerrymander.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:50:41 PM EST

4.00

Obama was elected to the Senate in 2004 and came into office on January 4th 2005, so he actually has almost four years of Senatorial experience

You're right. Sorry about that.

It's also laughable to compare Palin's experience as a Mayor of a town of 9,000 with Obama's experience as a representative for an Illinois state congressional district of over 650,000.

As do I; being one in a herd of 60 state legislators (especially in clout-heavy Illinois) is nothing like being the primary leader. Palin has 10 years of executive experience; Obama, none.

If you were hiring someone to be a CEO of a Fortune 500 corporation, and you had two candidates

I would look at their records. In this case, Obama's experience is largely unexceptional, with what few initiatives he did champion leaving a legacy of failure. The welfare homes he stood behind are a disaster area. The school program he worked on with Ayers, useless. I'd say Palin looks pretty good in comparison.

59

^ 16

Gerry -- disingenuous?

rumata.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 10:47:53 PM EST

4.00 (funny)

Then you either haven't thought it through or you're being disingenuous.

You must be new here.

72

^ 11

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 07:12:42 AM EST

none

looks like he spends his free time wrestling alligators

Yes, those melanoma scars on his face are worrisome.  I'm surprised you brought them up.

57

^ 1

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

profwhat.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 10:16:27 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Palin has more executive experience than the entire Democratic ticket combined.  Obama hasn't managed anything larger than the Harvard Law Review, and that was 18 years ago.  Maybe she was mayor of a small city, and governor of a small-population state, but she's got 18 years of managing bureaucracies, dealing with legislators, and handling warring cabinet members.

The trap set for the Obama folk is if they even try to raise the argument you are raising here.  Obama simply cannot attack her on a lack of qualification, because it opens him to a devastating counterattack.  At the end of that battle, maybe the GOP VP candidate will look unqualified, but the Dem Presidential candidate will also look unqualified--and who benefits from that?

75

^ 57

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

port1080.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 09:18:29 AM EST

none

Palin has more executive experience than the entire Democratic ticket combined.  Obama hasn't managed anything larger than the Harvard Law Review, and that was 18 years ago.  Maybe she was mayor of a small city, and governor of a small-population state, but she's got 18 years of managing bureaucracies, dealing with legislators, and handling warring cabinet members.

The trap set for the Obama folk is if they even try to raise the argument you are raising here.  Obama simply cannot attack her on a lack of qualification, because it opens him to a devastating counterattack

I guess I just don't get it, but to me Palin's "experience" doesn't add up to a hill of beans.  I just don't understand how you can equate it with what McCain or Obama or Biden has done.  I say there is a world of difference between big state and/or national politics and the politics of backwater Alaska - and nobody denies it, but you, gerrymander, and quite a few others nonetheless seem perfectly willing to ignore it.  Is it because you're so enthusiastic about the idea of a Republican ticket winning that you just don't care about her qualifications?  Or is there something I'm missing?  I just don't get how the right can love her so much, considering how much weight conservatives usually give to experience (which, I might add, was one part of conservative ideology that I still found quite compelling...not so much anymore, I guess).

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

102

^ 75

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

laputanmachine.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 08:26:27 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant, interesting, interesting)

I haven't read much about Palin, but the first thing I thought when I heard the news of McCain's pick was... ALASKA???? Wha?

It's like this whole election is about candidates who represent very separate and bizarre American demographics. No one gives you that "status quo" feeling that you sorta got from Bill Clinton and the two Bush presidents. With Bill Clinton, you had the standard Southern white guy "alpha male" thing going on. Same with the two Bush Presidents. And those two had the Big Business background which is common in politics. But none of the candidates we have today have any of that going for them, from what I can tell.

 You got McCain, the old white guy war veteran, who represents some kinda 1950s/1960s attitude. He seems so behind the times and disconnected from the year 2008. And he doesn't seem to have any big business background at all, having left the military and entering politics immediately after wards. He seems like a guy who should be running for President in the 1980s while the movie Red Dawn was in theaters.

We had Hillary Clinton there for a bit. No big business background, no "alpha male" feeling obviously, and her personal background had a very "corrupt post-modern America" feeling to it, thanks to the Lewinsky scandal, the rise and fall of feminism, and so forth. I would've voted for her if it weren't for her initial support for the Iraq war, but she didn't have that American Hero image attached to her, that's for sure.

And now we have Palin, who is from Alaska of all places. The only place that feels less "American" than Alaska but is still technically American is Puerto Rico. Her resume seems stronger than Obama's, but the state she governed seems so disconnected from the realities of the mainland that she feels out of place as well. No big business background here, either.

Ironically, the guy who seems to be most in touch with mainstream America is a a black guy who's middle name is Hussein and last name rhymes with America's arch enemy. No business background here.

Pretty interesting election, especially as it seems totally devoid of people with "capitalist hero" subtitles.

110

^ 102

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

pO157.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:34:41 PM EST

none

And now we have Palin, who is from Alaska of all places. The only place that feels less "American" than Alaska but is still technically American is Puerto Rico.

It produces a metric buttload of oil, which is important for the future. Self reliance, breaking addiction to foreign oil and all. Plus, Alaska is probably the one great frontier left on this nation's soil. What could be more American than that?

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

202

^ 110

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

Shy Elf.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 04:42:10 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

It produces a metric buttload of oil, which is important for the future.

At its best It only produced about 2M barrels/day, and now under 2/3M barrels/day.  That's barely a drop in the bucket with the US using 9M barrels/day just for automotive gasoline.  And it doesn't get that much better with 1/2M barrels/day from ANWR.

T. Boone Pickens has it right.  By all means, drill, drill, drill, but anyone telling you that's any kind of solution is trying to pull a fast one one you.

117

^ 75

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

bannister.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 12:37:28 AM EST

4.00 (interesting, interesting, interesting)

Port1080:

I'm not a Republican - but I honestly don't believe Palin is any "less" qualified than Obama.

The difference lies in the duties of the office.

Senators are basically career politicians who study legal theory, attend lots of hearings and assisting in the making of laws.

By contrast, the Governorship is an EXECUTIVE position - it is administrative by nature. Governors have to make both major and minor decisions on a daily basis, be responsible for a multifaceted state budget, deal with municipalities (police, fire, schools, etc) speak to the local and national press on a weekly basis and perhaps most importantly, Governors bear the final responsibility should anything bad happen to the state.

Further, Governors act as Commander in Chief of their state's National Guard, which could be considered a form of military experience.

The size of the state which the Governor manages is not really a huge issue. The budget may be bigger but all of the duties are essentially the same.

In Palin's case, the state of Alaska should not be considered a "boondock" state. Yes, it is remote and small in population, but it is the center of a huge energy industry which is an important national issue right now. It is also the closet state to Russia and Alaska often negotiates with Russia concerning fishing territory, etc.

In my opinion, the fact that she is 2000 miles away from Washington is a bonus. She's not an insider and she has a strong reputation for cleaning up corruption.

For those reasons, I'd say she's every bit as qualified  as Obama - if not more.

122

^ 117

Palin and experience

JimmyHavok.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 06:01:42 AM EST

4.33 (astute, interesting, interesting)

If you look over Palin's Wikipedia entry, it seems that her management style is "my way or the highway."  She fired the entire Board of Agriculture and Conservation because they appointed a Creamery Board that advised an action (selling a non-profitable state-owned dairy) she didn't agree with, then ended up having to do what they advised anyway.  She pulled a very similar stunt as mayor, firing a couple of city employees because they had supported her opponent.

134

^ 117

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 01:25:51 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

Governors act as Commander in Chief of their state's National Guard, which could be considered a form of military experience
The governor of Alaska appoints the board of regents of the University of Alaska. Should that be considered a form of academic experience?

127

^ 117

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

port1080.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 10:13:15 AM EST

none

Senators are basically career politicians who study legal theory, attend lots of hearings and assisting in the making of laws.

By contrast, the Governorship is an EXECUTIVE position - it is administrative by nature. Governors have to make both major and minor decisions on a daily basis, be responsible for a multifaceted state budget, deal with municipalities (police, fire, schools, etc) speak to the local and national press on a weekly basis and perhaps most importantly, Governors bear the final responsibility should anything bad happen to the state.

I don't know why it is that so many people seem perfectly willing to denigrate the experience of being a US Senator and favor Governors over Senators for the presidency.  I guess years of hearing it said on the campaign trail have made the accusation stick, even though there's absolutely no empirical evidence that governors (especially small state, minimal experience governors) make better (or even good) presidents.  If we look at the historical consensus candidates for top US presidents (here's the group: "George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt -- are consistently ranked at the top of the lists. Usually ranked just below those three are Presidents Thomas Jefferson and Theodore Roosevelt. The remaining top 10 ranks are often rounded out by Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Andrew Jackson, Woodrow Wilson, and John F. Kennedy"), you have an almost completely even mix of governors (3), senators (3), and military leaders (2).  There is no evidence at all that being a senator leaves one unprepared to take over the presidency.  Being president and governor may both be executive positions, but they're completely different ballgames with substantially different staffs, expectations, and responsibilities.  Saying that being governor of Alaska prepares you to be president of the US is like saying being CEO of a small furniture sales company in Iowa makes you the ideal candidate to take over Microsoft.  The job titles may be the same, but that's pretty much where the similarities end.

Further, Governors act as Commander in Chief of their state's National Guard, which could be considered a form of military experience.

The Alaskan National Guard has less than 2000 troops.  Managing it is only slightly more complex than managing a large urban high school (actually, nix that, I think the large urban high school is probably harder).

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

131

^ 127

Experience

profwhat.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 01:06:27 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

Every single president in your "top" list was either an officer in the military or a governor--and thus had executive experience.  Play along with the capsule biographies of the presidents:

Washington -- duh
Lincoln -- captain in the Black Hawk War
Franklin Roosevelt -- governor of New York
Thomas Jefferson -- governor of Virginia (post-independence); also count Secretary of State
Theodore Roosevelt -- lieutenant colonel during Spanish-American War
Truman -- captain during World War I
Eisenhower -- commander of Allied Forces during World War II; president of Columbia University
Jackson -- major general in the War of 1812
Wilson -- governor of New Jersey; president of Princeton University
Kennedy -- Navy Lieutenant during World War II

However, don't feel bad, because your methodology of consulting Wikipedia for a list of "top" US presidents, counting the number of governors, and drawing a conclusion about the usefulness of being a governor from that list has many flaws:

  • People are "top" presidents for wildly varying reasons.  I was surprised to see Mr. Trail of Tears on your list.
  • You are spanning centuries, when the job of president was very different.  Washington, and most 19th century presidents, presided over a microscopic federal government; it didn't really start to grow until Reconstruction.  These men needed fewer bureaucracy management skills.  (Note that the word "bureaucracy" did not enter English until 1818).

Being president and governor may both be executive positions, but they're completely different ballgames with substantially different staffs, expectations, and responsibilities.  Saying that being governor of Alaska prepares you to be president of the US is like saying being CEO of a small furniture sales company in Iowa makes you the ideal candidate to take over Microsoft.  The job titles may be the same, but that's pretty much where the similarities end.

This is very true; as many presidents (including Clinton) have said, there is basically no adequate preparation for the job.  That might be why incumbent presidents usually win re-election; they have the killer experience argument working in their favor.  However, to follow your analogy, saying that being a community organizer prepares you to be president of the US is like saying... well, that being a community organizer prepares you to be president of the US.

136

^ 131

Re: Experience

port1080.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 02:10:10 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

You are spanning centuries, when the job of president was very different.  Washington, and most 19th century presidents, presided over a microscopic federal government; it didn't really start to grow until Reconstruction.  These men needed fewer bureaucracy management skills.  (Note that the word "bureaucracy" did not enter English until 1818).

True, but the list has a relatively equal distribution in terms of time.  In fact, focusing just on modern (World War II) presidents actually favors the senators somewhat, and removes all the governors on the list from contention (unless you count FDR as being a modern-era president, which is debatable since he sort of spans two eras and essentially invented the modern office of the presidency single-handed).

Every single president in your "top" list was either an officer in the military or a governor

While Truman, Kennedy, and Lincoln had some military experience, it was hardly what their political careers were based on, and I think it hardly served to make them "qualified" for high office - or if it does, there are hundreds of thousands of equally qualified ex-military folks out there right now.  It's very apparent that they got the chance at the top spot because of what they did in their political careers, not their military careers.  That's why I said there were two military-backgrounders on the list (although I guess you could say three - Jackson was a senator, but it's pretty apparent his political career was based mostly on his military career) - Washington & Eisenhower.  They were the only two that got to the position without any real pre-presidency political background.

However, to follow your analogy, saying that being a community organizer prepares you to be president of the US is like saying... well, that being a community organizer prepares you to be president of the US.

Did I ever say that it did?  I've leaned on Obama's Illinois State House experience & his US Senate experience far more than on his community organizing experience.  In any case, as I've said before, I'm not completely comfortable with Obama's level of experience - I would be much happier if he had more experience, but what he has is what I could consider to be the minimum requirement (or maybe just below the minimum).  Palin, on the other hand, is FAR below what I would consider to be the bare minimum.  If McCain was younger I might be willing to give that a pass, but considering his age there is a much higher likelihood than normal that he won't make it through his first term, meaning Palin could, potentially, be running this country with just a year or two (or even less - there's always that slight chance that McCain will be the next William Henry Harrison) of experience as being VP.  

That, in my opinion, makes this a stunningly irresponsible pick on McCain's part.  Palin may make a good president or she may not, but she has done nothing to prove that she will.  She is completely an unknown, as everyone has said time and again.  If she ends up being a great choice, it will be a surprise.  The performance of our second-to-top leader should not be a surprise.  McCain had a responsibility to pick a solid candidate who could take over and make sure things would run smoothly.  Instead he gambled on a blatantly political pick who is a complete unknown.  If McCain had picked someone with just that minimal amount of experience (Romney, Pawlenty, any of the other top contenders) this election would have been a difficult choice for me.  As it is, all I see here is that McCain is so desperate to get elected that he is willing to make irresponsible decisions just to get in power.  That to me says that he is no longer the man of character he (arguably) once was, and he no longer deserves my respect or my vote.  I just don't see how everyone is so blasé about, or even supportive of, this choice.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

139

^ 131

Re: Experience

JimmyHavok.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 05:10:26 PM EST

5.00 (astute, astute)

You're citing holding the ranks of captain and lieutenant as "executive experience" suitable to prepare one for the Presidency?  That's some reach you've got there.

138

^ 127

different advantages

JimmyHavok.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 05:07:13 PM EST

none

Administrative skills at that level are essentially ones of delegation, and both senators and governors cannot be successful without those.

Senators bring an intimate knowledge of Congress and what needs to be done to get legislation through it to the office.

Governors bring experience in dealing with a legislature from the outside to the office.  

From what Wikipedia says about Palin, she brings neither.

135

^ 117

Federal vs State

Lou.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 01:30:23 PM EST

none

It is also the closet state to Russia and Alaska often negotiates with Russia concerning fishing territory, etc.

Does Alaska negotiate or is this the job of the fed?

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

224

^ 75

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

TopMarineGrunt.

Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:54:45 PM EST

4.00 (interesting, interesting)

Barack is in touch, most connected to the American people? Wait, wha?

He's only in touch with the left wing nuttys who pushed him through the media as the clear choice, from the MOMENT he was elected to congress.  Since that time he has done nothing in congress, just like his 130 "present" votes in the Illinois legislature.  The only thing he's done since getting elected is begin his campaign for the presidency, backed by the far left, who is definitely out of touch with main stream America.

226

^ 224

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

pO157.

Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 10:13:45 AM EST

none

He's only in touch with the left wing nuttys who pushed him through the media as the clear choice, from the MOMENT he was elected to congress.

And here I was under the assumption that Hillary was the one running as the inevitable.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

227

^ 224

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 10:51:44 AM EST

none

Obama transcends voting.

80

^ 75

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

profwhat.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:06:44 PM EST

none

There is a big difference between Alaska politics and national politics -- I don't deny it.  But there is also a big difference between being a Senator, where you run an office of maybe 75 staffers, occasionally make speeches, go on Sunday shows, and (if you like) introduce bills written by lawyers you hired, and being a President.  Senators do not have to make decisions between warring camps in their own organization, do not have to appoint people, do not have to know how to steer the largest bureaucracy in the world toward their policy objectives.  Governors do.

What is the experience of a Senator?  They might know a lot about policy issues.  I'll grant you that.

118

^ 80

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

bannister.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 12:56:07 AM EST

none

Profwhat - Good point, see my comments above.

119

^ 118

Re: Smacks of desperation or senility

profwhat.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 01:26:36 AM EST

none

Thanks for the compliment, and welcome to the site!  Hope you stick around.

125

^ 80

Small comment

pO157.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 09:52:53 AM EST

none

Senators do not have to make decisions between warring camps in their own organization, do not have to appoint people

Perhaps not. But, they have to balance their base versus reaching out to independents and other voters. They have to keep all the disparate groups back home happy. They have to avoid pissing off their party leadership when going against them on roll calls.

Senators do have to deal with warring camps, just not inside a bureaucracy.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

7

The VP debates.

singularity.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 02:59:10 PM EST

5.00 (astute, astute)

Biden will most likely destroy her in the VP debates.

13

^ 7

Re: The VP debates.

gerrymander.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 03:46:54 PM EST

4.50 (funny, interesting)

The beautiful part is that she doesn't necessarily have to win. If she holds her own, she gets credit for standing up to a powerful speaker -- which might be enough, if McCain mops the floor with Obama in their three debates.

9

^ 7

Re: The VP debates.

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 03:03:29 PM EST

3.00 (interesting, obnoxious)

Good point...I can't imagine more of a mismatch.  I wonder if Palin even knows where half the countries are that Biden's been to?

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

53

^ 9

Re: The VP debates.

Jackkeefe.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 08:31:40 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Out of curiousity, have you ever seen Palin interviewed? Or do you just believe that Biden will cream her because he's been in the Senate forever and she is newcomer to the national stage?

I've only seen Kudlow interview Palin and she was pretty frickin impressive. Of course its one interview and she could have been having her best day, but she doesn't impress me as being over her head.  If people expect a deer in headlights, they are likely to be surprised.

As for Biden, I watched him in the early Dem debates and he was not spectacular by any means. Obviously, Democratic primary voters weren't won over by his debating skills.  Plus with Biden, you never know when he blurt out some silliness like suggesting giving 200 million dollars to Iran with no strings attached.

The expectation game favors Palin.  biden is going to have to destroy her to live up to his reputation and he has to do without pulling a Rick Lazio. All Palin will have to do is hold her own to "win" the debate. Plus, the risk of Biden saying something incredibly stupid is at least as high as that of Palin.  

17

^ 9

Re: The VP debates.

T Slothrop.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:02:17 PM EST

none

Now wait a minute. I was going to stay out of this but this is just over the top. She doesn't know basic geography because she's a "young good-looking woman"? You are just assuming she's a bimbo.

I know as you have painstakingly pointed out Alaska has a tiny population. But I don't think that any state regardless of size is going to elect a bimbo as governor.

Your authority is not recognized here in Fort Kickass...

40

^ 17

Just sayin'

Lou.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:30:09 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

But I don't think that any state regardless of size is going to elect a bimbo as governor.

Are you sure about that?

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

42

^ 40

Re: Just sayin'

T Slothrop.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:45:46 PM EST

none

Sorry  but I suffer from an advanced case of paleo-sexism. To me, only women can be "bimbos". Men (like your example) who exhibit similar characteristics are "morons".

I know a whole shitload of morons have been elected state governors, but I still think a bimbo would be a harder sell. :)

Your authority is not recognized here in Fort Kickass...

44

^ 42

Re: Just sayin'

Lou.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:51:48 PM EST

none

I appreciate what you're saying...I just feel that "Bush the Cheerleader" puts him squarely in the bimbo column.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

73

^ 17

Re: The VP debates.

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 07:16:57 AM EST

3.00 (funny, astute)

But I don't think that any state regardless of size is going to elect a bimbo as governor.

Oooh...you haven't been to Alaska, I see.

21

^ 17

Re: The VP debates.

pO157.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:22:48 PM EST

none

I don't really think he called her a bimbo. Yes he pointed out she is physically attractive (in another sub thread), but I don't think his comment was obnoxious on its face.

I think he was trying to point out that Biden has a bunch of foreign policy experience and is well traveled. On the other hand, Palin has been mostly occupied with internal issues (she even sold the state executive jet on eBay). Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

23

^ 21

Re: The VP debates.

T Slothrop.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:28:45 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Whatever he was trying to point out, claiming she can't find countries on a map is way over the top.

Your authority is not recognized here in Fort Kickass...

26

^ 23

Re: The VP debates.

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:42:49 PM EST

none

Whatever he was trying to point out, claiming she can't find countries on a map is way over the top.

Is it really?  If I gave you a blank map, could you name every country on it?  I don't think I could, although I would hope that a serious US presidential candidate could.  I expect Palin could point out where Iraq is, and hopefully Pakistan and Afghanistan, but Uzbekistan?  Armenia?  South Ossetia (if it hadn't been in the news lately)?  I don't think it's crazy to think that Biden's probably been to some countries that Palin couldn't identify on a blank world map.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

34

^ 26

Re: The VP debates.

HidingFromGoro.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:10:22 PM EST

5.00 (informative, interesting)

If I gave you a blank map, could you name every country on it?

Only one way to find out.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

37

^ 34

Re: The VP debates.

T Slothrop.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:17:39 PM EST

none

Great find!

Your authority is not recognized here in Fort Kickass...

38

^ 34

Re: The VP debates.

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:20:56 PM EST

none

I got 42 out of 48, not too bad I guess.  I would have got three more (Singapore, Brunei, & East Timor) but they're so small I couldn't see them on the map, and hence forgot about them.  Totally missed Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, and Bahrain, though.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

46

^ 34

Goddamn -stans.

pO157.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 06:06:46 PM EST

none

I gave up after 7 minutes. I got 39/48 right (no cheating), which isn't too shabby I guess since I am not running for anything. Even more frustrating was that you had to spell it exactly correct, so that was a pain in the butt.

But yeah, I'm satisfied. Run me for VP of something.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

63

^ 34

Re: The VP debates.

PenitenziAgite.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:17:34 AM EST

none

43 out of 48
I missed Qatar, Brunei, East Timor, Bahrain and the Maldives....

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

222

^ 34

Re: The VP debates.

permazorch.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 10:33:27 PM EST

none

Man, I only got 23 out of 48. I suck. Those 'stans are particularly difficult, though.

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

28

^ 26

Re: The VP debates.

T Slothrop.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:48:05 PM EST

none

Is it really?  If I gave you a blank map, could you name every country on it?  I don't think I could, although I would hope that a serious US presidential candidate could.

Damn port, are you high? That's got to be about the silliest thing I've ever seen you post here.

Your authority is not recognized here in Fort Kickass...

31

^ 28

Re: The VP debates.

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:55:20 PM EST

none

Damn port, are you high? That's got to be about the silliest thing I've ever seen you post here.

You don't think knowledge of the world around us should be a qualification for president, or are you knocking me because Palin is just running as VP?  I've already made my case that I think she should be held to a higher standard, because of McCain's advanced age, but I guess we could argue about that.  I don't see how that makes what I said "silly", though.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

33

^ 31

Re: The VP debates.

T Slothrop.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:09:59 PM EST

none

What is "silly" is your assertion that ANY Presidential or Vice-Presidential candidate of the last 40 years or so anyway could pull off that feat. Sorry if my response didn't make that clear. :)

Look I don't think Palin is qualified for either job. To be totally honest, if you take all four of 'em Obama, Biden, McCain, and Palin, I'd say that Biden is the only who who is actually "qualified" for either job.

But you know as well as I do that American politics doesn't work like that.

Honestly I was only giving you a hard time because I felt your criticism of Palin was based almost solely on the fact that she is, admittedly, a serious milf. If I was wrong about that, I do sincerely apologize.

Your authority is not recognized here in Fort Kickass...

35

^ 33

Re: The VP debates.

T Slothrop.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:13:04 PM EST

none

Sixth line should read "...only one who..."

Your authority is not recognized here in Fort Kickass...

39

^ 33

Re: The VP debates.

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:22:03 PM EST

none

What is "silly" is your assertion that ANY Presidential or Vice-Presidential candidate of the last 40 years or so anyway could pull off that feat. Sorry if my response didn't make that clear. :)

I guess it's asking for too much, but I wish it wasn't.  

But you know as well as I do that American politics doesn't work like that.

That just depresses me.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

22

^ 17

Re: The VP debates.

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:28:28 PM EST

none

Now wait a minute. I was going to stay out of this but this is just over the top. She doesn't know basic geography because she's a "young good-looking woman"? You are just assuming she's a bimbo.

I know as you have painstakingly pointed out Alaska has a tiny population. But I don't think that any state regardless of size is going to elect a bimbo as governor.

No, I'm saying it because of her lack of experience and her provincial roots.  Bush famously didn't know who the President of Pakistan was when quizzed during the 2000 campaign, and he clearly wasn't a bimbo - he just had no foreign policy experience and didn't keep up on current events.  I imagine the same is true of Palin.  It doesn't really require any foreign policy experience or knowledge to be governor of Alaska, and keeping up on such things isn't something that I would expert her to do.  That's not a dig at her qualification to be governor of Alaska (or any state, really), but it's certainly a dig at her qualifications to be President of the United States.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

25

^ 22

Re: The VP debates.

T Slothrop.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:40:07 PM EST

none

Bush didn't know who the president of Pakistan was because he was (and remains) a fucking moron who is lost without his handlers.

I can find even most obscure former Soviet Republics and failed-state African countries on a map. I know the names of most world leaders. Does that qualify me to be president?

My point is that any reasonably intelligent, reasonably well-educated person  - regardless of political experience - should be able to find countries on a map and answer simple questions about current events. Saying Palin can't is saying a lot more than she lacks foreign policy experience.

Your authority is not recognized here in Fort Kickass...

27

^ 25

Re: The VP debates.

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:46:20 PM EST

none

Bush didn't know who the president of Pakistan was because he was (and remains) a fucking moron who is lost without his handlers.

....and yet Bush in 2000 had FAR more proven executive and political experience than Palin, and also a much better educational pedigree.  Given that, why is it crazy for me to think that Palin's foreign policy chops may be lacking?

My point is that any reasonably intelligent, reasonably well-educated person  - regardless of political experience - should be able to find countries on a map and answer simple questions about current events. Saying Palin can't is saying a lot more than she lacks foreign policy experience.

Now you're extrapolating far more than what I said.  I said that there are probably countries Biden has been to that she couldn't find on a map (and I meant a blank map, although I should have made that clear from the beginning).  I never said I thought she was a complete moron.  See some of my other replies to you for further clarification.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

30

^ 25

Re: The VP debates.

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:53:00 PM EST

none

I can find even most obscure former Soviet Republics and failed-state African countries on a map. I know the names of most world leaders. Does that qualify me to be president?

My point is that any reasonably intelligent, reasonably well-educated person  - regardless of political experience - should be able to find countries on a map and answer simple questions about current events.

I should also point out that I teach political science, and I'm well aware (and depressed by the fact) that a large portion of the kids who graduate with a BA in political science are not capable of finding countries on a map and answering simple questions about current events.  If you go out of political science it gets even worse.  People like you and I are the exception, not the rule, when it comes to knowledge of international relations.  It wouldn't shock me at all to find out that you would do better on a quiz of international affairs than many US Senators, and probably most state governors.  So, yes, I have a low opinion of Palin, but not just of her.  I'm pretty pessimistic about most politicians when it comes to those sorts of things.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

29

well this is a surprise

wetkarma.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:51:21 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

I'm somewhat reminded of how I felt when Bush announced Harriet Miers as his choice for the supreme court. Yea she's a citizen of the USA and as such meets the minimum requirements for the VP slot, but I think that this decision is based 100% on voter calculus (winning the HRC vote) and very little attention has been paid to the 'what if he dies' scenario.

I understand that politicians have to have a big ego in order to do the job that they do. But really -- does McCain think he is immortal?

IF McCain can live, then the choice of Palin to capture what I assume to be the independent/swing HRC votes is a devious one. I mean if all you want in your candidate is a pair of breasts and accompanying genitalia -- then Palin is just like HRC. But thats about where the similarities end.

I know that people are going to try and spin this as some sort of genius/maverick pick, but to me it smacks of desperation -- desperation for the votes of those Democrats still upset that HRC didn't get the nod.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

41

I must say

Lou.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:43:25 PM EST

5.00 (astute, brilliant, interesting)

I think McCain made a good strategic choice.  She seems to have conservative chops and looks to be a popular leader in her state.  She's a "Feminist for Life", which might rankle the pro-choice folks, but she still self identifies as a feminist.  She wasn't in the race for the presidential nomination so there won't be any troublesome video of her tearing down McCain. (I'm lookin' at you, Joe Biden.)  Sure, Biden might trounce her during the debates, but as someone mentioned down thread, all she will have to do is show up.  Remember, that's what folks said about the debates between Bush/Gore...and that seemed to work out pretty well for the GOP.  Experience?  Meh.  I don't think it's all that important for the VP slot as long as she gets in a year or two as VP before McCain croaks. (I also think it's over-rated for the prez as long as he surrounds himself with smart people...but that's for another discussion).

Finally, as much as it pains me to say it, she's easy on the eye.  I wish it were otherwise, but the  typical American voter of either stripe has the attention span of a kitten and one can't discount the 'ohhh shiny' factor.  Hell...there is already a comment or two plus a QL about how her looks matter to the tripodial conservative voters among us.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

55

It's Over

ms sue.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 08:37:44 PM EST

5.00 (funny, interesting, astute)

I think McCain has clinched the election with this choice. I think he probably would have won with a couple other choices, but this was masterful.

For those of you who think Biden will rip her to shreds with his vast knowledge and experience, let me remind you that most people don't give a crap about that elitist stuff anymore.

It's over.

86

^ 55

Wrong, and wrong by a mile

1fastdog.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:53:29 PM EST

5.00 (astute, astute, interesting)

Sorry, Sue, but your conclusion is way off. The general consensus from my relatives, co-workers, and other assorted friends and neighbors was that McCain is openly pandering; thinking that females are so dumb that they'll be swayed to vote for him simply because he picked a VP on the basis of chromosomes. My wife (a Dem, who votes Republican from time) just laughed at the sheer transparency of the move. All of the women (they're all Repubs save one) who run the offices at my workplace had the exact reaction at the announcement yesterday: WHO??!! Followed by: good lord he must be desperate if he thinks picking a woman magically blinds people to McCain's faults.
Now, to shed some light on the faulty theory floated by gerry and others that a statistically significant portion HRC's supporters are going to embrace Palin (whom, it should be noted, is under an ethics investigation). My mon and my sister are ardent HRC supporters. My mom's in her eighties, my sister in her fifties, and both sent in large chunks of money to her campaign. Both had their Republican friends switch party affiliation (you can change party affiliation before a certain date) so these same Repubs could vote for hillary in PA's primary. Both have local networks of like-minded co-workers, or retirees in my mom's case, that devoted similar time, money and energy to HRC's campaign. They're all voting for Obama according to my mom. My mom's reaction to McCain's picking Palin: "He must think women are stupid!" All that said, this is how it appears at my locality and my small sampling of reactions is just that: small. However, I suspect that this sentiment is a damn solid purview of those coveted HRC supporters. Anyone believing that any more than 2% of HRC supporters will be jumping ship to McCain on the basis of this pick are willfully deluding themselves.
Obama's trouble spot, at least in this area, is overcoming the racist vote. In a stunning display of bipartisanship, I've run across a truly heartbreaking number of people that won't vote for him simply because of his skin. Forget stances on issues, they don't care. They simply won't pull the lever for a black man. Mostly, these folks are in the 50 and up age group and always vote, as opposed to their younger counterparts who by and large are friendly to Obama, but don't always show up to vote, and may not vote for him anyway, especially if they lean rightward.
What does my local analysis tell me? It tells me that the Palin choice is mostly a dog and pony show born out of desperation that will fail to resonate with the intended demographic, which renders your conclusion that "McCain has clinched the election with this choice," just plain wrong in my eyes. Obama's path to the White House will ultimately be determined by those truly independent voters that conclude his stances are more important to them than the color of his skin.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

87

^ 86

Re: Wrong, and wrong by a mile

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:26:28 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

...thinking that females are so dumb that they'll be swayed to vote for him simply because he picked a VP on the basis of chromosomes
Have a look at the exit polls from the Democratic primaries. You'll see that women voted for Clinton at a rate 10-12 percentage points higher than men did. In fact, in several states that Clinton won, the male vote was pretty close to even between Clinton and Obama, and the race was decided by women who, apparently, voted for Clinton mostly based on her gender.

90

^ 87

Re: Wrong, and wrong by a mile

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 04:14:47 PM EST

none

Considering that Obama and Clinton were so close in their policies that they were nearly indistinguishable,no doubt there were a significant number of women who gave her their vote only because of her gender.  But McCain and Obama have some very significant policy differences, so I doubt that the gender of the second spot will be quite so compelling.

91

^ 90

Re: Wrong, and wrong by a mile

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 04:17:22 PM EST

none

McCain only needs a handful of votes in key states.

93

^ 87

Re: Wrong, and wrong by a mile

1fastdog.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 04:33:42 PM EST

none

and the race was decided by women who, apparently, voted for Clinton mostly based on her gender.

Well, yeah. But those were Democratic women voting in a Democratic primary, so all other things considered equal, that's to be expected. 99% of those same women will not make the change to McCain on the basis of Palin's gender alone. I just don't see any appreciable number of Dems, regardless of gender, embracing the extension of GOP policies that McCain ultimately represents. Given what McCain represents, it'll be interesting to see how many conservatives Obama reels in. There looks to be quite a few.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

94

^ 93

Re: Wrong, and wrong by a mile

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 04:37:56 PM EST

none

99% of those same women will not make the change to McCain on the basis of Palin's gender alone
What's the spread right now in, for example, Ohio? 1% may be all McCain needs.

96

^ 94

Re: Wrong, and wrong by a mile

1fastdog.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 04:45:54 PM EST

none

1% may be all McCain needs

True enough. On the other hand, 1% of Obamacons may represent all that Obama needs.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

124

^ 86

Re: Wrong, and wrong by a mile

wetkarma.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 08:52:11 AM EST

none


Obama's trouble spot, at least in this area, is overcoming the racist vote. In a stunning display of bipartisanship, I've run across a truly heartbreaking number of people that won't vote for him simply because of his skin. Forget stances on issues, they don't care. They simply won't pull the lever for a black man.

sigh..that is so..very very depressing.

Unsurprising perhaps..but still a major downer.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

56

^ 55

Re: It's Over

pO157.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 08:49:15 PM EST

3.00

For those of you who think Biden will rip her to shreds with his vast knowledge and experience, let me remind you that most people don't give a crap about that elitist stuff anymore.

Nor do people give a crap about VP debates, in general.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

58

^ 55

Re: It's Over

profwhat.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 10:19:32 PM EST

none

Wow, you are more decisive than anyone else I've heard.  I agree this is a smart pick, but, "it's over?"  I think we have a hell of a race on our hands with four excellent candidates.  For the first time, I don't feel like I have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

60

^ 58

Re: It's Over

Lou.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 10:55:45 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I have to agree with Sue.  I can see the ears of disgruntled, right of center HRC supporters perking up.  Oh sure, they'll probably vote for Hillary in 2012, but for now there's a fresh faced, self-avowed hockey mom (her words, not mine) who could be in the white house.  And to be honest, I kind of like that idea too...I would like it more if she wasn't coming in on the landing path with McCain. A person, believe it or not, I used to like...until he just rolled over for the ass-raping from Bush/Rove/Cheney without the privilege of a reach around.  Hell I could even forgive him that if not for the fact that he's going to just continue the same bullshit we've been living with for the last 8 years.  And come on, let's face it...most elections are won on charisma and the McCain team just pulled a charisma end around.

Nope...Sue is right.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

61

^ 60

Eh, Wot?

uncarved block.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 11:26:53 PM EST

none

    disgruntled, right of center HRC supporters . . .

    And how a large a percentage of the electorate do you really place that figure at? Just curious, because after living through the 90s, the conservative CW would say that you couldn't even fill a regular season Arena Football League game with those numbers. Seriously, this could have some slight impact in Ohio- which is a big swing state, obviously- but I can't see it taking much away from the debate at the top of the ticket.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

62

^ 61

Re: Eh, Wot?

Lou.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 11:56:49 PM EST

none

By itself, it probably won't mean much...but if we look at it as a pebble in a pond...

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

64

^ 62

Re: Eh, Wot?

pO157.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:18:34 AM EST

none

You're probably right. If anything this neutralizes the HRC '12 run. If McCain/Palin lose then she has a legit contention in the primary during the next cycle. In that case I assume the Dem powers that be would be hesitant to allow HRC to mount a primary challenge against an incumbent Obama.

If McCain/Palin wins then one of HRC's big selling points is also taken off the table.

Is Palin the best possible running mate for McCain right now? I don't know. But in the long run it is a good move for the GOP.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

65

^ 58

Re: It's Over

ms sue.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:23:28 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Wow, you are more decisive than anyone else I've heard.  I agree this is a smart pick, but, "it's over?"  I think we have a hell of a race on our hands with four excellent candidates.  For the first time, I don't feel like I have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Thank you for helping me make my point.

And btw, she's pretty strongly anti-gay:

"Supporters will point to the fact that she vetoed a bill that would have done away with partnership benefits for gay state employees, but she did that only after the Alaska Supreme Court had ruled the opposite and her AG had told her the law was unconstitutional. She publicly disagreed with that ruling and supported a referendum to have the state constitution amended to overturn it."

68

^ 65

Re: It's Over

profwhat.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:11:51 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

"Anti-gay" sure doesn't mean what it used to; twenty years ago it meant wanting to fire gays and quarantine them on an island somewhere, while today it means disapproving of gay marriage.  Progress!  Anyway, Biden and McCain both voted for the Defense of Marriage Act, and McCain and Palin both supported state gay marriage amendments, though McCain was one of the few Republicans to vote against the federal marriage amendment.  But Palin's position on gay rights is more nuanced than you suggest.

There is still a long time before the election.  You've got a whole convention, three and a half debates, a bunch of ads, and a whole ton of news cycles between now and the voting--why are you so certain?

69

^ 68

Re: It's Over

ms sue.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:29:38 AM EST

none

Profwhat, I'm sorry, but I honestly laughed when reading your Sullivan link.

As for why I'm so certain, let's just say it's female intuition. :-)

78

^ 55

Re: It's Over

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:32:23 AM EST

none

I think McCain has clinched the election with this choice
Yesterday evening I was at the local haircut place* getting a haircut. I was the only customer, but there were three white, working-class Vagina-American voters working (or at least on duty - the lady cutting my hair was the only one actually working) and the conversation quickly turned from the weather and plans for the impending long holiday weekend to McCain's new running mate. After a lot of blather, one of the women made a comment that enjoyed general agreement: "No matter who we vote for, we'll be making history."**


* It's sort of a beauty parlor, but they cut men's hair, too. What is the name for that sort of place? I mean, it's not a barber shop. Whatever.
** She meant, "No matter whom we vote for..." I didn't correct her.

79

^ 78

Re: It's Over

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:57:37 AM EST

none

* It's sort of a beauty parlor, but they cut men's hair, too. What is the name for that sort of place? I mean, it's not a barber shop. Whatever. -- The place I go to is called the Hair Cuttery. The way I look at it is, if you're happy with the service why not just call it by the name they gave it?

** She meant, "No matter whom we vote for..." I didn't correct her. -- You're saying you're not as annoying in person then?

The point you all struck agreement on is hard to argue with.

Tending to final details.

81

^ 79

Re: It's Over

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:16:36 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

You're saying you're not as annoying in person then?
I'm a hell of a nice guy in person. I come here for arguments.

Funny thing: To counter the idea that McCain had already made history, I offered up Geraldine Ferraro's name. Two of the three women had never heard of her and the third had completely forgotten until I mentioned it.

84

^ 81

Re: It's Over

Lou.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:22:57 PM EST

4.50 (funny, funny)

I come here for arguments.

No you don't.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

82

^ 81

Re: It's Over

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:22:14 PM EST

none

It is remarkable what close to a quarter century will do to people's memories. However, the main point of the original comment might stand in that, no matter whom they vote for we'll end up with either this country's first black president or first female vice president.

Tending to final details.

85

^ 82

Re: It's Over

ms sue.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:37:34 PM EST

none

However, the main point of the original comment might stand in that, no matter whom they vote for we'll end up with either this country's first black president or first female vice president.

Allow me, a Vagina-American (or is that an American Vagina?...oh, well) to say that, given McCain's age and medical history, I can't help but think we're looking at this country's first black president or first female president.

As an aside, I live in a tiny town that has, though, twice the population of the town over which Palin presided as a member of the city council and mayor. We like to watch the meetings on our local cable station, for great comic relief.

I can't sure with any certainty that Palin's city experience is the same, but here these positions  are a joke and do not entail much more than a couple meetings a month. Most of those elected are primarily interested in protecting their business interests in the area. They come in knowing very little about how to run an effective administration or even about existing laws and regulations. They fumble through, and then they leave.  

88

^ 85

Re: It's Over

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:27:21 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

me, a Vagina-American (or is that an American Vagina?...
It depends how you wish to market yourself.

147

^ 81

Re: It's Over

ivyafire.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 08:01:25 PM EST

none

Funny thing: To counter the idea that McCain had already made history, I offered up Geraldine Ferraro's name. Two of the three women had never heard of her and the third had completely forgotten until I mentioned it.

What I wouldn't give for a 'sad' moderation option.  

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

100

^ 78

Re: It's Over

Degee.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 05:25:49 PM EST

none

there were three white, working-class Vagina-American voters

and all this time I thought the POTUS's started their speeches with "My FELLOW Americans"

LingQ: the best place for learning languages.

89

Vetting

strangeluck.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:43:12 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

Another thing that makes this choice really surprising to me is the fact that, as someone who's never been in the national spotlight (or even the spotlight of a moderately sized state), her past hasn't been subject to the intense scrutiny of the national press. Granted, I'm sure McCain's people did some checking in the past few weeks, but I can't imagine that they would have been able to vet her as thoroughly as McCain, Obama and Biden have been by the press. Considering that she's already under investigation for ethics violations, this is an awfully big risk to take.

111

Curious timing

Steve Urkel.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:41:42 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

I have to wonder if this announcement was timed to distract the world from the Swedish Lake Monster.

The end.

115

Too much pop culture

Lou.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 12:05:13 AM EST

5.00 (funny, funny)

Every time I read the headline: The Palen Shocker, I think of this

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

116

^ 115

Re: Too much pop culture

pO157.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 12:17:37 AM EST

none

Yeah, after I submitted the article I realized it may be... misinterpreted. Oops.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

137

Didn't take long

joshv.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 03:26:52 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

So, any thoughts on the following:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/30/121350/137/486/580223

if the evidence presented is correct, there is good reason to believe that Palin's latest child might actually be her daughter's.  Now that's a big if - and this story has been kicking around in the Alaskan media for awhile and it's yet to break in the national media, though I am sure some fact checkers are very busy at the moment.

Even if true, I don't much care, but it wouldn't speak very highly of McCain's vetting process.

141

^ 137

Re: Didn't take long

Degee.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 05:39:17 PM EST

5.00 (astute, astute)

For me the most compelling is the picture of her at approximately the same stage of pregnancy with an earlier child compared to the current child. Seems quite different especially since you hear that women carry more prominently as they get older.

But this is shaky ground for attack even if you are the most cynical campaigner... this is not the same as Edwards' peccadilloes. IF it all turns out to be true, she is spun as a a self-sacrificing mom who will do anything to protect her kids. (gets her off the hook for buggering off to campaign while having an infant as well)

LingQ: the best place for learning languages.

163

^ 137

Re: Didn't take long

wetkarma.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:27:07 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

I gain an appreciation for slander laws in the UK after reading crap like that. I'll say no more on the issue.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

170

^ 137

Re: Didn't take long

Lou.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:12:24 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Well, the whole mess about the daughter/granddaughter thing seems to be put to rest...of course, having a pregnant, unmarried 17 year old daughter certainly brings up the question of  the effectiveness abstinence education.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

179

^ 170

Re: Didn't take long

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 06:04:15 PM EST

none

...having a pregnant, unmarried 17 year old daughter certainly brings up the question of  the effectiveness abstinence education
Too bad for the Democrats, then, that voters seem to care only about the economy and national security.

184

^ 179

Re: Didn't take long

Lou.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 07:52:08 PM EST

none

Who said anything about the democratic platform?  I just said it brings abstinence education into question.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

194

^ 170

Re: Didn't take long

tomc.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 01:56:24 AM EST

none

Apparently the daughter will "do the right thing" by having the child and marrying the dad.

But I understand no one has told him about these plans yet.

195

^ 194

Surprise is the spice of life...

Lou.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 02:18:20 AM EST

5.00 (funny)

But I understand no one has told him about these plans yet.

I also bet they haven't told him that he has joined the Marines, either.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

210

^ 194

Re: Shotgun Nuptials

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 11:10:49 AM EST

none

Palin has a lifetime membership in the NRA.

196

^ 170

Re: Didn't take long

joshv.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 02:20:00 AM EST

none

Oh no, this will just fan the theories of conspiracy and cover-up.  I've already seen theories popping up that this pregnancy is a fake, and that we should expect a (fake) miscarriage soon, as that will put any further inquiries into the matter beyond the pale.

142

^ 137

vetting? pshawww....

1fastdog.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 05:58:00 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

but it wouldn't speak very highly of McCain's vetting process.

What vetting process? The only thing McCain and his staff of weasels were interested in was trying to quell the media coverage of the Dem's convention. It had the stink of desperation from the get-go, and it's smelling worse and worse as the seconds tick by. Between this and Palin being under investigation in the troopergate scandal, it's clear that McCain's campaign shunted aside whatever improprieties were discovered, and gambled on a Hail Mary choice instead of one of the more qualified candidates they had waiting in the wings. I could go on, but there's a better rant here:

Palin's qualifications are, to a very real degree, secondary to the issue at hand. What matters most right now is John McCain's comically dangerous sense of judgment. He picked a running mate he met once for 15 minutes, who's been the governor of a small state for a year and a half, and who is in the midst of an abuse-of-power investigation in which she appears to have lied rather blatantly. She has no obvious expertise in any area, and no record of any kind of federal issues. McCain doesn't care.

Sensible people of sound mind and character simply don't things like this. Leaders don't things like this. It's the height of arrogance. It's manifestly unserious. It's reckless and irresponsible. It mocks the political process. Faced with a major presidential test, McCain thought it wise to tell an imprudent joke of lasting consequence.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

152

^ 142

not a panic pick

gerrymander.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:43:06 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

The Washington Post is reporting that McCain had been considering Palin as a VP candidate since February, and had her vetted carefully during the interim.

155

^ 152

Re: not a panic pick

pO157.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 11:05:24 AM EST

none

If that is true it speaks very well of the McCain camps ability to keep things on the QT and avoid leaks. Not a bad characteristic to have in the White House.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

173

^ 155

Re: not a panic pick

JimmyHavok.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:18:49 PM EST

none

Not a bad characteristic to have in the White House.

Yeah, we really really need less transparency in our government.

206

^ 152

Re: not a panic pick

wetkarma.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 07:41:52 AM EST

none

the New York Times is saying something rather different -- I find the NYT to be more plausible in this case.

This nomination is looking more and more like Harriet Miers as each day passes.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

215

^ 206

Re: not a panic pick

gerrymander.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 02:46:57 PM EST

none

the New York Times is saying something rather different -- I find the NYT to be more plausible in this case.

Meh. It just looks to me like more yellow journalism from the NYT -- obfuscation and selective emphasis to raise "concern." Selections from the article:

she was a member for two years in the 1990s of the Alaska Independence Party, which has at times sought a vote on whether the state should secede

She was a member of a different party. And this is worse than close friendship with an unrepentant bomb-throwing terrorist... how?

was arrested 22 years ago on a drunken-driving charge

Once, when she was 22 years old? Never since? The horror!

the team assigned to vet Ms. Palin in Alaska had not arrived there until Thursday

That might have mattered in 1940. These days, we have them's fancy Internets, fax machines and cell phones.

top aides were vague on Monday about how and when he had learned of the pregnancy, and from whom.

NYT attribution at it's finest. "Top aides"? One of the six-member team tasked with vetting, or someone else who by definition wouldn't know?

While there was no sign that her formal nomination this week was in jeopardy,

"...I'm bringing up the possibility because I want the nomination to be in jeopardy."

said a Republican close to the campaign

More fine attribution work there, Bumiller. Were the "sources" from the usual "sources say" line busy?

Although The Washington Post quoted advisers to Mr. McCain on Sunday as saying Ms. Palin had been subjected to an F.B.I. background check, an F.B.I. official said Monday the bureau did not vet potential candidates and had not known of her selection until it was made public.

That's correct. The campaign vets potential candidates, the FBI conducts background checks. Ask the FBI spokesperson if they vetted Palin, and the answer would be "no" -- just like with any other candidate.

The only real news imparted by this story is that McCain and staff can keep a secret -- not exactly the worst revelation to learn about a presidential candidate. The NYT is just pissed they didn't have months to try to drag Palin through the mud, and doing so now will look like they're trying to drag her through the mud, especially if they can't find any substantial flaw.

151

^ 142

Re: vetting? pshawww....

ivyafire.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 10:45:35 PM EST

none

Definitely reckless.

I'm wondering how all these women he's trying to win over are going to react to her treatment of other women.

Feminist my ass.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

164

^ 151

Re: vetting? pshawww....

ms sue.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:58:31 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I'm not clear as to your "these women." If you're referring to the PUMAs, I think she will siphon off some of them.

And in Missouri yesterday, she was greeted like a rock star by 17,000 folks who seem to think that lack of experience is suddenly a big plus.

And did I mention she was treated greeted like a rock star? Hmmm....who's the celebrity now?

171

^ 164

Re: vetting? pshawww....

ivyafire.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:38:03 PM EST

none

I'm not clear as to your "these women." If you're referring to the PUMAs, I think she will siphon off some of them.

Apparently McCain expects to do just that with this choice, but the buzz online seems to be evenly split between people like you, who think he'll succeed, and people like me, who think he'll fail.

Now all we have to do is wait. :D

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

172

^ 164

Re: vetting? pshawww....

JimmyHavok.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:17:03 PM EST

none

I doubt if many PUMAs (from what I saw of them on TV) ever intended to vote for Hillary.

182

^ 172

Re: vetting? pshawww....

ms sue.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 07:04:24 PM EST

none

I doubt if many PUMAs (from what I saw of them on TV) ever intended to vote for Hillary.

I believe they did. And some of them will hold on to that fantasy,  looking forward to 2012. I'm not concerned in the least with them. In other words, they are the least of my concerns. Their 15 minutes of fame is up.

But I have to admit that I enjoyed the thought of Gloria Allred  gagged.

197

^ 182

Re: vetting? pshawww....

JimmyHavok.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 02:53:33 AM EST

none

All I can say is the ones I saw on MSNBC looked like Republicans.  Other people have said that they were only found where there were TV cameras.

209

^ 197

Re: looking like

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 11:01:54 AM EST

none

...looked like Republicans
Someone should clue them in that they need to conceal the pitchfork and horns.

223

^ 209

Re: looking like

JimmyHavok.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 11:01:39 PM EST

none

No, it's the fat belly and the starched jeans that give them away.

160

^ 137

Re: Didn't take long

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:44:29 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

if the evidence presented is correct...
I presume you mean "if this blogger's interpretation of the evidence is correct."

...there is good reason to believe that Palin's latest child might actually be her daughter's
That's some weaselly shit right there: "good reason to believe" and "might actually be."

If this accusation is unjustified, I wonder how many Democrats will be introspective enough to realize this is a smear far, far worse than 'Obama is a secret Muslim' or the "swiftboating" of John Kerry. It's a shameful thing to have injected this matter into political discourse.

175

^ 160

Re: Didn't take long

JimmyHavok.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:30:52 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

far worse than 'Obama is a secret Muslim' or the "swiftboating" of John Kerry.

Why is it worse?  At worst, it indicates that Palin is extremely old-fashioned, whereas the Obama lie is meant to frighten the public, and the Kerry lies were intended to denigrate his courage and service.

There are a lot of other things in her history that make her look much worse.

166

^ 160

Re: Didn't take long

Lou.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:44:14 PM EST

none

far, far worse

Why is it far, far worse?  I think we'd all agree that presidential politics is a rough sport...is it far, far worse because she's a woman?  

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

168

^ 166

Re: Didn't take long

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:51:32 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

Why is it far, far worse?  I think we'd all agree that presidential politics is a rough sport...is it far, far worse because she's a woman?
It's far worse because it involved Palin's 17-year-old daughter and an infant in the libel.

169

^ 168

Re: Didn't take long

Lou.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:03:44 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

I agree with you on principle.  However, the right, starting with attack radio, took those gloves off a long time ago.  You (not you personally, of course) reap what you sow.  Personally, if this was "scooped" by the big media, I'd be outraged.  But the Daily Kos?  Pfft...I'm pretty liberal, but I don't even read that pile of shit.  I consider it the Free Republic of the left.  And just to be clear...if this was one of Obama's daughters, the Drudge Report would be all over this like a fly on a fresh turd - imagery intended.  Like I said, in this modern political landscape, the gloves are off.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

176

^ 169

Re: Didn't take long

ivyafire.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:53:54 PM EST

none

I don't think the daily Kos is the problem, because it's all over the internet in other forums.

The problem is that anyone would involve her children.  There are plenty of reasons not to like her without picking on her children or grandchildren.

Of course, there is a huge difference between voters talking smack about a candidate and a candidate making a nasty joke about another politician's child, as McCain so famously did about Chelsea Clinton.

Obama has no control over what a bunch of faceless bloggers are spewing, where McCain and McCain alone has sole control over his own mouth.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

178

^ 169

Re: Didn't take long

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 06:02:23 PM EST

none

...if this was "scooped" by the big media...
There was no "scoop." The entire thing was a complete fabrication.

...the Drudge Report...
I'm not at all familiar with the journalistic standards of the Drudge Report. Have they ever fabricated a story?

140

^ 137

Re: Didn't take long

JimmyHavok.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 05:20:52 PM EST

none

If it's true, it's a very pre-'50s move.  I think Jack Nicholson (among others) was raised to think his mother was his sister.  It was probably easier to pull off back when clothes weren't as close-fitting...and if you weren't in the public eye.

I wonder if her daughter had a purity pledge?

145

^ 137

Re: Didn't take long

profwhat.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 07:21:54 PM EST

none

This is weird and wacky stuff, and I'm going to need better proof than people thinking she didn't look pregnant enough.  What is this, Desperate Housewives?

148

^ 145

Re: Didn't take long

JimmyHavok.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 08:03:43 PM EST

none

You didn't look at the pictures, did you?

158

^ 148

Re: Didn't take long

profwhat.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 11:45:22 AM EST

none

159

^ 158

It's a bit like the Chinese gymnast controversy.

MayorBob.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 11:57:05 AM EST

none

Right as the events were taking place we had "experts" making their assessments on how old the girls really were by analyzing the facial characteristics of the gymnasts from photographs that were taken right before the Olympics.  A lot of ado over not much anything.  Has the IOC determined yet whether the Chinese girls were really under or over 16?  One would assume that the Chinese government has assiduously done a data scrub of existing records and the disparities between what was reported at previous events and now are being laid at the feet of incompetent or corrupt Chinese officials who probably "aren't available for comment."

Tending to final details.

177

^ 158

Re: Didn't take long

ivyafire.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:56:13 PM EST

none

I don't think that picture is clearly showing anything.

I don't care, but I don't think your evidence is conclusive one way or the other.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

150

^ 137

Re: Didn't take long

ivyafire.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 09:21:34 PM EST

none

Wow.  As much as I don't like her, that's disgusting that anyone would involve her family that way.

Not surprising, but just the same, ugh.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

153

^ 137

Re: Didn't take long

MayorBob.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:59:05 AM EST

none

I'd prefer that everyone just hold their breath and wait until this piece of business is either confirmed or collapsed by virtue of the development of some facts beyond the overheated suspicions of Markos Moulitsas.  I just took a gander at Google News and there still isn't anything in the mainstream media about it.

If true, it's a killer for Palin's place on the ticket and McCain finds out what George McGovern learned happens to a campaign after Tom Eagleton admitted to having undergone shock therapy.

Tending to final details.

154

^ 153

see above, re: push

gerrymander.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:48:00 AM EST

none

And if it's not true, ex-Clinton voters will have confirmed for them how certain segments of Obama's primary constituency will take any steps, and proffer any slander they can think of, against a female candidate.

Yeah, that's the ticket to ensuring party unity. Don't blame Republicans if Massachusetts becomes a swing state; Democrats are doing this all on their own.

183

^ 154

Re: see above, re: push

ivyafire.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 07:43:59 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

That has nothing to do with Obama, and everything to do with just how nasty people in general can be.

I am still concerning myself with the conduct of the candidates themselves, and so far, McCain and Palin leave me, and plenty of others less than impressed.

Way back when Clinton got a blowjob, there were all kinds of Republican sex scandals but to this day all anyone remembers is  Monica Lewinsky.  Why is it always worse when a Democrat does something 'wrong' when it's the Republicans who are all about family values?   And don't say it's about perjury, because the fact is, his affair was a matter between him and his wife, not him and the nation, and if it was a matter between him and the nation, how come every one of the people in my links was not publicly charged and questioned before the citizens of the USA on national television?  Oh, yeah, because they are Republicans, and they are above reproach, no matter how sleazy they might be.  Whatever they do, it just fades away and the American people forget about it.

 The real difference is, there is always some excuse for the Republican party, but the Democrats, who are more liberal, are somehow held to a higher standard of behavior when it ought to be the other way around considering the Republicans are the family values, moral majority party.

But let some idiot blogger make a nasty comment about some Republican VP nominee or her family, and boy oh boy, it's all on Obama's head.  Palin gets a pass for any stupid thing she says or does because somewhere, someone else who said something stupid plans to vote Democrat.

Makes perfect sense to me.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

185

^ 183

Re: see above, re: push

ms sue.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 09:22:37 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant, interesting)

The real difference is, there is always some excuse for the Republican party, but the Democrats, who are more liberal, are somehow held to a higher standard of behavior when it ought to be the other way around considering the Republicans are the family values, moral majority party.

"...the Democrats... are somehow held to a higher standard..."

Interesting use of the passive voice. I think it just might be possible that the ones doing the holding are the Dems themselves. They're endlessly questioning themselves.

The Republicans...not so much. They can promote Palin as the candidate for "reform and change" without so much as a wink and nod. They don't sit around wringing their hands. They unite. And if takes a million Big Lies, so be it.

189

^ 185

Re: see above, re: push

ivyafire.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 01:00:26 AM EST

none

They unite. And if takes a million Big Lies, so be it.

That is true.  I agree 100%

If they pull a win out of this, it will be because they always stand together, which is something the Democrats never seem to be able to manage.  

What bothers me is, they take the whole country down with them.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

187

^ 183

Re: see above, re: push

gerrymander.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:26:01 PM EST

none

But let some idiot blogger make a nasty comment about some Republican VP nominee or her family, and boy oh boy, it's all on Obama's head.

As always, it's not just the offense, it's the hypocrisy. Larry Craig wasn't hounded because he had gay sex, but because he had gay sex after publicly supporting anti-gay social positions. Eliot Spitzer was run out of office not because he hired women for sex, but because he made his career prosecuting men and women for exchanging money for sex.

The same kind of thing is happening here. Obama positioned himself, and his supporters championed his run for president. for months as the candidate of Hope and Change. Does fabricating vile stories about an opposing female candidate represent that Hope and Change? Or is it just the same old Same Old?

188

^ 187

Re: see above, re: push

Lou.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:55:51 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Heh...Gerry, you just made her point.  But maybe you know something I don't but is Kos now an official part of the democratic party?

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

198

^ 187

It's big lies all the way down

JimmyHavok.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:08:13 AM EST

5.00 (astute, brilliant)

[Eliot Spitzer] made his career prosecuting men and women for exchanging money for sex.

Bullshit.  He prosecuted one prostitution ring that had underworld ties.  He made his career prosecuting Wall Street crooks, and their buddies in the Just Us Dept. nailed him for revenge.

Does fabricating vile stories about an opposing female candidate represent that Hope and Change?

Obama fabricated those stories?  He did it long before she was picked for VP, and spread them around Alaska?  We need a guy who thinks that far ahead for President!

200

^ 198

Re: It's big lies all the way down

gerrymander.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:29:40 AM EST

none

He made his career prosecuting Wall Street crooks

And you don't think that Wall Street types frequent escort services?

203

^ 187

Re: see above, re: push

ivyafire.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 04:45:26 AM EST

none

Obama has already been quoted saying family are off-limits and if he finds any of his staff are responsible for the rumors they'll be fired.  

Unlike McCain he isn't on the record with nasty jokes about other politician's family, as in the Chelsea/Janet Reno joke.

Obama isn't responsible for what some blogger says.  McCain is responsible for his own behavior.  Palin is responsible for her own behavior.  Craig, Spitzer, the Clintons, and all the rest of them are responsible for their own behavior.

Where the hypocrisy comes in is when one party pretends to be representing family values when clearly their behavior says otherwise.  

So tell me, where has Obama personally said or done anything against Palin?  Do you have evidence?

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

157

^ 154

Re: see above, re: push

MayorBob.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 11:16:04 AM EST

none

And, if it's not true, the damage manages to center mostly on DailyKos with questions about why he decided to go this deep into the sewer this early in the campaign?  Nobody, that I'm aware of, connected to Obama, Biden or the Democratic Party has touched this masterpiece of investigative journalism.  Maybe it's true and maybe Moulitsas has allowed his blog to become the cyber equivalent of a supermarket tabloid -- if the news isn't interesting and twisted enough, make it up as you go along.

Of course, there's a third option here -- it may never be determined by the time of the election whether this rumor (and that's really all it is) is true or false.  The Palin family may go into info lockdown on this, saying it's ludicrous and libelous and a complete invasion of their privacy.  Any of the doctors involved in either the birth of Palin's son or her grandson (dependent upon your belief in this) will have to keep quiet out of patient-doctor confidentiality.  The really mainstream media isn't going to invest that much time running this down as they're going to have enough to cover on non-salacious news regarding the campaign.  And any media outlets that do investigate are liable to find there's no smoking gun they can find between now and November.  So, this becomes a bore and a time-filler on the internet.  Anyone who posts, "and her son is really her grandson" will likely be met with scorn and derision (well-earned IMHO) and demands to provide proof.  All of this going nowhere and signifying nothing worth talking about.

The Atlantic just ran a piece, minus the "is he her son or grandson" thing about what McCain really didn't know about Palin, which ought to give the Democrats and Obama/Biden enough red meat to gnaw on.  

Tending to final details.

156

^ 137

Re: Didn't take long

pO157.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 11:09:22 AM EST

none

I don't care much either, but if this is incorrect Daily Kos will have lost whatever shred of credibility it had remaining.

I hope they were awful certain of this before posting it.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

165

^ 137

Re: Didn't take long

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:27:26 PM EST

none

Apparently there's no longer any "if" about it.

167

^ 165

DailyKos owes an apology.

pO157.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:49:01 PM EST

none

Big time.

Plus, the fact that the 5th child has Downs only strengthens the argument that it was the Governors. Children with Downs are more prevalent in women that give birth at a more advanced age.

DailyKos should STFU. It has lost almost all credibility with me.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

225

Nicknames

Lou.

Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:49:23 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Best nickname for our next Vice President:

Caribou Barbie

Courtesy of Wonkette

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

98

This tells the WHOLE story

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 05:05:11 PM EST

4.33 (funny, funny)

10

One Thing For Sure.

MayorBob.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 03:28:29 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

This sews up Alaska's three electoral votes.  Oh wait, the only time the state went Democratic was 1964.  Other than cementing his relations with the rightmost side of the Republican Party, it's hard to see what this accomplishes.  But then, McCain's options otherwise wouldn't have helped.  Ridge was too pro-life.  So was Lieberman (plus being a Jew would have really sent off the alarm bells).  Romney was a Mormon (likewise not terribly attractive to fundie Christians).  Huckabee merely took the second "m" out of Mormon.

I'm really wondering what did Pawlenty in?

Tending to final details.

12

^ 10

Re: One Thing For Sure.

gerrymander.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 03:44:04 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

Other than cementing his relations with the rightmost side of the Republican Party, it's hard to see what this accomplishes.

Four letters: P U M A.

36

^ 12

assclownery

1fastdog.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:13:54 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Four letters: P U M A

Puckers Up McCain's Ass?  

One would think it's puckered up enough as is.....
'Course the more one pays attention to McCain's thought processes, one would be forgiven for wondering if His Geezerdom is letting his ass do his thinking for him while his brain takes on the duties of waste removal.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

97

McCain the gambler

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 04:48:07 PM EST

4.00 (astute, interesting)

You may have noted the discussion in our sister forum about the different gambling styles of McCain and Obama.  McCain is a go-for-broke craps player who likes winning the long shots (which means he loses a lot), and this move is totally in line with that personality type.

Incidentally, that style is exactly why he shouldn't ever be President.  The stakes are simply too large to allow a guy who takes long shots to play.

74

We know absolutely squat about this woman

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 07:43:59 AM EST

1.00 (obnoxious)

All we really know is that she's a Vagina-American and a nobody.  Everything else is speculation.

She has a habit of shaking her finger, and I suspect we'll be tired of her voice before a month has gone by.  That's all I got out of her appearance with McCain.  I think she's younger than that blonde that McCain always has around (who is that, his daughter?).

Wikipedia says Palin's 44...is she a smoker?  She's a pretty hard-bitten 44 to my eye.  When I was watching TV I guessed early 50s.

76

^ 74

How enlightened.

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 09:19:14 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

Coming from TnT's official spokesperson for the Democratic National Committee, I'd have thought better of you than to relegate Palin to "Vagina-American" and a nobody.  Certainly, by virtue of getting elected mayor of even a place as small as Wasilla, she's done more than most Americans, either Vaginas or non-Vaginas.  And then for you to go on taking the issue of whether she's really all that attractive is about as elevated in tone as the people whose main response to her selection as "I'd hit it."  Come on Jimmy, there's turf aplenty to criticize Palin about based on her lack of experience, harshly conservative politics, readiness to stick oil drilling pipes virtually anywhere that you hardly need to go straight for the misogynistic and sexist talking points you'd expect in some biker bar.  

Tending to final details.

95

^ 76

Re: How enlightened.

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 04:43:53 PM EST

none

Come on, Mayor, she's a nobody.  Her only attributes that mattered to McCain were her plumbing and her hard-right politics.  So she made it to mayor of a tiny burg.  How much competition was there?  And the same goes for getting to governor of Alaska, it's not like there are a whole lot of people to choose from.

She is very attractive, but like I said, I mis-estimated her age.  Alaska's pretty hard on people, though...lot of alcohol and nicotine, and those will age a person.

Her voice and her body language are going to be a factor.  To tell the truth, I'm a bit surprised that Alaskans elected her, from what I saw of those.

99

^ 95

Re: How enlightened.

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 05:18:59 PM EST

none

"Come on, Mayor, she's a nobody." -- In your opinion, which of course isn't colored by the fact that she's a Republican.

"Her only attributes that mattered to McCain were her plumbing and her hard-right politics." -- I don't believe I ever posted that her gender wasn't a factor and I've outright posted that her politics and social views help shore up support on the right that might have softened on McCain with a pick of Lieberman, Romney or Ridge.  But, you're forgetting something here.  That is the fact that she already stood up to the power base in her state and managed to whip them.  I don't think it's a stretch to say that McCain was trying to strengthen his image as a maverick who won't abide business as usual once elected (whether there's any real truth to that or not).

"So she made it to mayor of a tiny burg.  How much competition was there?" -- Frankly, I don't know.  For the most part, wanting to be mayor or city councilperson in such small municipalities tend to be thankless jobs as you're bound to find yourself at odds with someone regarding one prosaic matter or the other: parking regs, zoning issues, trash removal, snow removal, etc.  That's why I don't necessarily share Sue's disregard over the relative merits of small town civic officials.  They tend to be dirty jobs and someone has to do them.

"And the same goes for getting to governor of Alaska, it's not like there are a whole lot of people to choose from." -- They do have close to 700,000 people who live in the state.  And she managed to upset an Alaskan icon in Frank Murkowski and then beat a fairly popular Democrat in the general election.  Heh, you know the Aloha State's total population is only like twice that of Alaska.  Surely, a political sage would be a shoo in.  I mean do you have anyone interested in running your state?

As for the rest regarding her looks, well they'll be factors but aren't they rather shallow factors?  Somehow it's demeaning to refer to any female as a "Vagina American".  Would that be a term you'd sit by and abide if someone referred to Hillary Clinton or Nancy Pelosi the same way?

Tending to final details.

101

^ 99

Re: How enlightened.

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 07:22:12 PM EST

none

They do have close to 700,000 people who live in the state.

Around 500,000 of them are there because they (or their parents) got kicked out of the rest of the country, and there's no place left to kick them to.  Believe me, the talent pool isn't deep in Alaska.

Somehow it's demeaning to refer to any female as a "Vagina American".  Would that be a term you'd sit by and abide if someone referred to Hillary Clinton or Nancy Pelosi the same way?

I used it because I thought it was appropriate.  Clinton and Pelosi are where they are because of their characters, not because some old horndog liked their lady humps.

103

^ 101

Re: How enlightened.

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 10:11:29 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Clinton and Pelosi are where they are because of their characters, not because some old horndog liked their lady humps
You're kidding, right? Hillary Clinton owes her position entirely to her husband, and Pelosi owes hers to a friend who inherited her congressional seat from her husband. (Pelosi no doubt also partially owes her position to her wealthy investor husband.)

104

^ 103

Re: How enlightened.

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 10:34:11 PM EST

2.50

Hillary Clinton owes her position entirely to her husband, and Pelosi owes hers to a friend who inherited her congressional seat from her husband.

Bill married Hillary for her lady humps?  I suspect it was because of her character.

Your convoluted explanation of how Pelosi's lady humps got her into Congress is just a little too complicated to follow.

Meanwhile, McCain was definitely checking out the humps on his running mate...get it?  Mate?

105

^ 103

Re: How enlightened.

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 10:42:09 PM EST

none

Pelosi also owes a certain amount of why she is where she is now because of her father who was mayor of Baltimore.  Ask any Kennedy or Bush the benefits of growing up in the middle of a political dynasty.

Tending to final details.

106

^ 105

Re: How enlightened.

Lou.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 10:50:16 PM EST

none

In short there aren't a lot of politicos who got their jobs solely on his or her lonesome.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

107

^ 106

Re: How enlightened.

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:22:57 PM EST

4.00 (funny)

Don't tell that to Havok.  He's so entertaining when he's explaining his theories of political inheritance.

Tending to final details.

113

^ 107

Re: How enlightened.

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:43:39 PM EST

none

theories of political inheritance.

At least mine is a little more nuanced than "every woman in politics got there because somebody wanted to bang her."

As for Palin, did you see the video of McCain ogling her?

108

^ 106

Seriously.

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:28:43 PM EST

none

Just about anyone who gets anywhere in politics got there because they're either the son or daughter of someone, they made a whole bunch of money doing something else they could use as political seed money, or they had a rabbi somewhere along the line who steered them in the right direction.

Tending to final details.

109

^ 101

Enlightened Free Riders.

pO157.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:29:55 PM EST

none

Around 500,000 of them are there because they (or their parents) got kicked out of the rest of the country, and there's no place left to kick them to.  Believe me, the talent pool isn't deep in Alaska.

I bet a fair amount of them are residents only on paper. When I lived in the Gem State there were a ton of folks from AK who refused to switch their license, vehicle registration, whatever over. Apparently they hated Alaska enough to move but liked it enough to keep their residency for their annual Permanent Fund Checks.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

114

^ 109

Re: Enlightened Free Riders.

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:46:04 PM EST

none

Yeah, most of the fishermen spent their winters in warm places like Mexico or Hawaii, but they still collected that sweet sweet dividend check.  I never applied for it, even though I had to change my residence in order to bring my guns into the state, because I wasn't willing to spend the winter in the frozen ass-end of Hell.

77

^ 74

Re: We know absolutely squirt about this woman

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 10:56:24 AM EST

none

All we really know is that she's a Vagina-American...
Some of us happen to like Americans with vaginas, Havok. I guess you do not (not that there's anything wrong with that).

92

^ 77

Re: We know absolutely squirt about this woman

JimmyHavok.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 04:17:24 PM EST

none

My liking for people is dependent on a lot more than whether they have vaginas or not.

120

^ 74

Re: We know absolutely squat about this woman

ivyafire.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 05:58:24 AM EST

none

She's a member of this organization.

She's a bit of a flake, and has been all over the news saying with a giggle that she doesn't even know what the vice president does.

There are several scandals in Alaska, one of them having to do with her firing some official who wouldn't fire her ex-brother in law at her request, due to a grudge over her sister's divorce.  She's a charmer.

Many women are pissed and insulted at the obvious ploy to try to get women voters to swing over to McCain because we'll vote for anyone with a vagina.  

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

132

^ 120

Re: We know absolutely squat about this woman

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 01:15:05 PM EST

none

What did you mean by, "She's a bit of a flake..."?  It's not obvious by reading the linked webpage.

143

^ 132

Re: We know absolutely squat about this woman

ivyafire.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 06:07:21 PM EST

none

I would consider anyone who was nominated for the position a bit flaky if they giggled and said on camera they had no clue what their duties were if they actually were  elected to said office.

WTF was she thinking?  The dumb blonde act is not cute in politics.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

144

^ 143

Re: We know absolutely squat about this woman

profwhat.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 07:19:13 PM EST

3.00 (obnoxious)

It was not a stupid question.  The role of the vice president changes markedly from administration to administration.  The duties under the constitution are paper-thin, so the actual day-to-day job is mostly going to consist of things the president tasks you with.  Hence her question of what the VP does "day by day," and whether the job would allow her to be "fruitful" and productive.  Also, I heard no giggle; you misremembered that, you sexist pig.

146

^ 144

Re: We know absolutely squat about this woman

ivyafire.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 07:54:14 PM EST

none

Actually, if you play several of her clips, she always has a barely suppressed giggle, as she does in that clip.

Play this one where the giggle isn't offensive because the subject at hand is considered humorous, then play yours, and see if she doesn't have the exact same ripply sound to her voice where she's trying to talk and not laugh at the same time.

Because she's in on the joke in both instances.  She doesn't outright let loose with the giggle, but it's there in her voice as she speaks, because it's oh so funny and cute that she has no clue.

And that makes me sexist?

What planet are you from?

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

161

^ 143

Re: We know absolutely squat about this woman

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:56:26 PM EST

none

I would consider anyone who was nominated for the position a bit flaky if they giggled and said on camera they had no clue what their duties were if they actually were  elected to said office
Again, I missed that on the webpage you linked to with the word "flake." What am I missing?

174

^ 161

Re: We know absolutely squat about this woman

ivyafire.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:25:53 PM EST

none

Perhaps I gave you the wrong link.  There seem to be quite a few folks who think she's flaky, vindictive and dumb.

I also note that people on this page seem to think she is laughing as she speaks, too. ;)

They must all be sexist pigs, because of course, that's the only reason to dislike her, right?  Just like that was the only reason to dislike Hillary?  

So far we've had two dirty politicians as our female candidates in this election.  Isn't it possible it has not a single thing to do with sexism and everything to do with their complete lack of integrity?  The only difference I see between them is Hillary refuses to play dumb for the camera.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

180

^ 174

Re: We know absolutely squat about this woman

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 06:07:51 PM EST

none

There seem to be quite a few folks who think she's flaky, vindictive and du
You mean the same folks who invented a story about Palin's baby? You'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't listen to anything they say.

So far we've had two dirty politicians as our female candidates in this election
Are you claiming that Palin is "dirty"? Other than lying bloggers, upon what do you base that accusation?

181

^ 180

Re: We know absolutely squat about this woman

ivyafire.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 06:35:57 PM EST

none

Since that story was circulating in Alaska long before the Daily Kos got it, I hardly think you can say they invented it.

I'm going to be very surprised if the McCain campaign doesn't self destruct all by itself.

I'm sure they knew about her daughter's pregnancy all along and with her marrying her boyfriend it's a calculated risk whether the pro-abstinence voters will flee or it will serve to make the Palin family look like poster children for the pro-life movement.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

192

^ 180

Re: We know absolutely squat about this woman

ivyafire.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 01:29:41 AM EST

none

Are you claiming that Palin is "dirty"? Other than lying bloggers, upon what do you base that accusation?

Palin  is dirty and vindictive.  She makes a habit of firing people who don't agree with her.

Bur of course, all the bloggers, all the people interviewed, all the Alaskans quoted, in fact, everyone who remembers her doing these things must be lying.  

I sure hope this woman doesn't try to sell you a bridge, zyxwvutsr.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

201

^ 192

4 out of 5 Alaskans approve!

gerrymander.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:33:02 AM EST

none

Palin has an approval rating of 80%. Maybe those reported were just the bitter 20% of losers.

212

^ 201

Those wacky Alaskans

Lou.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 11:35:28 AM EST

none

She does in fact, have a high approval rating...yet at the same time 87% think she was lying about her troopergate situation.  Do Alaskans like liars?  Or perhaps they're thinking, well yeah, she lied, but she wanted to destroy a former in-law and who hasn't wanted to do that?

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

213

^ 212

Re: Those wacky Alaskans

gerrymander.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 02:02:02 PM EST

none

Maybe they're thinking that protecting of a cop who would taser his own 10-year-old son is a worse offense than lying about attempts to get the cop fired.

216

^ 213

Rough and Tough

Lou.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:04:39 PM EST

none

This is precisely what we need in the Whitehouse...a veep that won't let a silly thing like the rule of law get in the way of getting the job done.  Ooorah

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

208

^ 192

Re: We know absolutely squat about this woman

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 11:00:13 AM EST

none

Palin  is dirty and vindictive.  She makes a habit of firing people who don't agree with her
Again, you have cited various liberal blogs - the reputable news sources you linked to do not unambiguously support your accusation. I'm beginning to think it's all in your imagination.

I sure hope this woman doesn't try to sell you a bridge, zyxwvutsr
I doubt I'd vote for her, let alone buy anything. See, I'm not a partisan political ideologue like you are so I can more easily assess when someone is peddling bullshit.

218

^ 208

Re: We know squat, but women aren't buying it!

ivyafire.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:20:55 PM EST

none

I doubt I'd vote for her, let alone buy anything. See, I'm not a partisan political ideologue like you are so I can more easily assess when someone is peddling bullshit.

Ah, those pesky liberals.  If you read up on what Alaskans really think, you'll understand that most people believe the whole taser story is bullshit made up by Palin to defame her brother in law.  Someone is peddling bullshit all right, but it's Palin.  She has a history of firing people when they don't agree with her, and the brother in law isn't the first to end up on her hit list.

Alaska and Hawaii are tightly linked, there are a lot of people here who travel back and forth between the 2 states with the seasons.  Those of us who live in these remote areas hear what people who actually spend time in Alaska have to say about Palin, and it's not the same 'everyone loves her' BS the GOP is feeding you.

An article yesterday said McCain's numbers from female voters went down, so the women aren't buying what he's selling.  :D  Men are, which comes to me as no big surprise, sadly, considering what makes up the GOP, a bunch of sexist old white men.   Maybe I had this all wrong and she wasn't chosen to pull in the female vote at all.  Wouldn't that be a kick in the head?  Of course, he already had the man, didn't he? ;)

But then, what do I know?  So far every one of my 'bullshit' links has been backed up by fact, and everything I've said has been reiterated by someone else and modded up as 'informative,' but I'm spouting liberal bullshit.  

I'm going to love watching them drag all the skeletons out of her closet as McCain's campaign self-destructs.   I can't wait.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

220

^ 218

Re: We know squat, but women aren't buying it!

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:27:07 PM EST

none

She has a history of firing people when they don't agree with her, and the brother in law isn't the first to end up on her hit list
Really? Who was first?

So far every one of my 'bullshit' links has been backed up by fact, and everything I've said has been reiterated by someone else and modded up as 'informative'
Wait, are you seriously suggesting that the popularity of a claim is evidence of its truth? Well, no wonder you think you have been providing accurate information - you have no idea what objective facts are in the first place.

133

^ 120

As before, it's all about the swing voters

T Slothrop.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 01:21:18 PM EST

none

I do not for a minute doubt that your analysis is correct - for women who lean left.

Personally, it matches half of what I'm seeing here locally this weekend: women  who tend left of center are pissed off. However the women I know who tend to lean right are thrilled.

What I don't have available to me are any of these "pro-Hillary kinda-conservative female swing voters", and what they end up thinking about Palin is where the fight is ultimately going to be won or lost for the Republicans.

Your authority is not recognized here in Fort Kickass...

2

Outstanding

gerrymander.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 02:28:20 PM EST

none

As you can probably tell by my QL, I think Palin is a great choice for McCain. Not only does she have a reputation for taking a stand against government waste and Republican corruption (Ted Stevens must have soiled his shorts this morning), but also has a history of personal achievement Hillary Clinton supporters are bound to love.

15

^ 2

Re: Outstanding

PenitenziAgite.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 03:59:57 PM EST

5.00 (astute, astute, astute)

Hillary Clinton supporters are bound to love.

And an anti-choice track record and Republican party membership that they are bound to not love.  

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

190

^ 2

Outstanding Bullshit

logan.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 01:17:58 AM EST

5.00 (informative, brilliant, brilliant)

Not only does she have a reputation for taking a stand against government waste and Republican corruption (Ted Stevens must have soiled his shorts this morning)

I seriously doubt that. My guess is that he did a happy dance: Ted Stevens endorsed Sarah Palin for Governor. He even did an ad for her that used to be hosted on her web site. Pulling the ad last week was probably a mistake so here's the ad on youtube. Hey, I'm just trying to help out.

Say what you will about Ted Stevens, but he's loyal to his friends. Last Friday, Ted again endorsed Sarah Palin. Either he's amazingly loyal, he's counting on her to deliver a pardon or he's thinking he'll take her down with him. My guess is it's #2, as she was a director of his 527 group, the "Ted Stevens Excellence in Public Service, Inc.," Hey, wait a minute! Isn't John McCain supposed to be Senator Campaign Finance Reform? Isn't he opposed to 527s? Yup. He's pretty clear about that, too. Then why would he choose the former director of a 527 group for his VP? And not just any 527, a 527 run for the benefit of the first Senator in 15 years to be indicted while in office. Uh, Maverick? I'm waiting for an answer.

Then there's the Bridge to Nowhere: "I told Congress, thanks but no thanks on that bridge to nowhere," Not true. Sarah Palin didn't oppose the "Bridge to Nowhere", she supported it.

Moving on to social issues, in 2006, Sarah Palin told the Eagle Forum that she favored abstinence-only sex education in the schools. Her unmarried 17-year-old daughter is now pregnant. Now, you could argue that this is a private matter for the Palin family, but she made a point of espousing the viewpoint that the best way to prevent teenagers from becoming pregnant was not to teach them about birth control. Congratulations, Grandma. I'll give Gov. Palin one thing though: when she said she supported this idiotic idea, she wasn't lying. She gave her daughter the same stupid advice she wants to give everyone else's kids. And that's why America has the highest rate of teen pregnancy in the developed world.

-=Logan
Research, facts, a Republican needs not these things.

204

^ 190

Re: Outstanding Bullshit

Shy Elf.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 05:07:18 AM EST

5.00 (informative, informative)

11.Q:  Are you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?

A:Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.

207

^ 204

Re: Outstanding Bullshit

port1080.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 10:03:45 AM EST

none

11.Q:  Are you offended by the phrase "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?

A:Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I'll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.

Oh dear god.  

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

191

^ 190

Re: Outstanding Bullshit

Lou.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 01:26:52 AM EST

none

Thank you, Logan...just...thank you.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

199

^ 190

She's a magic mountain, she's a leather glove

Steve Urkel.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:16:35 AM EST

none

If it turns out that Bristol Palin was taught nuts and bolts sex education in school despite her mother's preferences, will that prove something? Or does it only work one way?

"that's why America has the highest rate of teen pregnancy in the developed world. "

The Guttmacher Institute ranks states on:

service availability--how well the states meet existing need for subsidized contraceptive services and supplies; laws and policies--whether their laws and policies are likely to facilitate access to contraceptive services and information; and public funding--the extent to which they devote their own revenues, and leverage potential federal dollars, to support the delivery of publicly supported contraceptive services and supplies.
According to Guttmacher Utah ranks "44th in service availability; 48th in laws and policies; 34th in public funding; and 47th overall".  Utah is an abstinence only state. And yet Utah has the 6th lowest teen pregnancy rate in the US.

California, by comparison, ranks "15th in service availability; 1st in laws and policies; 8th in public funding; and 1st overall". California requires contraceptive education statewide. Despite that, California has the 7th highest teenage pregnancy rate in the US.

3

^ 2

Re: Outstanding

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 02:34:28 PM EST

none

As you can probably tell by my QL, I think Palin is a great choice for McCain.

What, exactly, makes her qualified to be president?  I believe you've been harping about Obama's lack of qualification.  What makes you satisfied that Palin could hack it?  She has absurdly less experience than any Presidential or VP candidate in recent memory.  The only things going for her are her ideological purity and the fact that she's a young, good looking woman.  If that's enough to qualify you for being president, well...meh.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

14

^ 3

Re: Outstanding

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 03:58:14 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant, brilliant)

She has absurdly less experience than any Presidential or VP candidate in recent memory
John Edwards.

18

^ 14

Re: Outstanding

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:02:55 PM EST

none

John Edwards.

Good point, although Edwards at least had served in national office.  He was pretty damn weak, though.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

19

^ 18

Re: Outstanding

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:05:47 PM EST

none

Edwards was a senator. Governors actually have responsibility, senators only have to show up and vote once in a while.

20

^ 19

Re: Outstanding

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:18:17 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

senators only have to show up and vote once in a while.

Meh, that's all they're required to do, I guess, but in practice they do a lot more than that.  Every US Senator and US Rep that wants to get reelected has a huge staff dedicated to constituent services, which they have to manage.  They also need to understand and make decisions about the policies being voted on, as well as run effective campaigns.  They do all this without having any of the sort of institutional support staff (Cabinet, etc.) that most government executives do.  Finally, there's no real evidence that senators make worse presidents than governors.  Let's not forget that Abraham Lincoln had practically the same political career as Obama (and no executive experience, either), and yet he goes down in history as one of the most respected presidents of all time.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

5

^ 3

Re: Outstanding

gerrymander.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 02:47:54 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

What, exactly, makes her qualified to be president?

She's not running for president. She only gets to be president of McCain dies early or (more likely) runs on her own after four or eight years.

In the meantime, I suspect what time she spends in the VP seat would be concentrated on the role as President of the Senate. Combined with her anti-corruption stance, she's basically be the Anti-Cheney, something the Republican party needs.

Lastly, don't underestimate her appeal to women voters. "Able to be elected" has always been the first important qualification in holding office.

8

^ 5

Re: Outstanding

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 03:02:00 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

She's not running for president. She only gets to be president of McCain dies early

McCain is in his early 70s.  He's three years OLDER than Reagan was when he first took office.  He will be almost as old starting his first term as Reagan was starting his second term.  Reagan is the only president that even served in office past age 72 (the next oldest was Eisenhower, who LEFT OFFICE when he was 71).  McCain is historically old, and it should probably be a campaign issue (although it's to Obama's credit, I think, that he hasn't yet made it one).  Both his father and his grandfather died younger than him.  Even if he takes excellent care of himself (which I'm sure he does), odds are very good he'll die before he can serve out two terms.  If McCain wins, his VP has a greater chance of becoming president through inheritance than anyone did since FDR ran for his fourth term.  That makes Palin's experience and qualifications exceptionally important, far more so than they would be if McCain was a younger man.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

45

^ 8

Re: Outstanding

gerrymander.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 06:01:42 PM EST

none

He's three years OLDER than Reagan was when he first took office.  He will be almost as old starting his first term as Reagan was starting his second term.

US life expectancy has gone up five years since 1982. And Reagan lives 15 years past the end of his second term, despite being shot. You're not really helping your case here, port.

47

^ 45

Re: Outstanding

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 06:11:35 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

US life expectancy has gone up five years since 1982.

...and yet the average life expectancy for men is still 75 years.  Although to be fair, as I read this chart, since McCain is a white man who was 65 in 2001, his avg life expectancy would at this point be 81.5, which is somewhat better but still not encouraging.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

54

^ 47

Re: Life Expectancy

Jackkeefe.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 08:35:19 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I'll bet McCain annonuces a one term plede in his speech.  It will mitigate the age issue and allow him to campaign as being free from the political bondage of running for reelection.

123

^ 8

Re: Outstanding

ivyafire.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 06:06:33 AM EST

none

Anybody who thinks VP isn't running for president is naive at best.  Remember LBJ and Jerry Ford?

They absolutely must be ready to assume the duties of the office if necessary.

For McCain to pick a simpering twit who jokes about not knowing what the Vice President does seems like the kiss of death to me.  And, as I already said,I hope it is.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

126

^ 123

Re: Outstanding

pO157.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 10:11:06 AM EST

none

Does anybody actually "run" for the vice-presidency? How many folks join the primary fight to get nominated to the #2 slot?

I don't think either of your examples really "ran" for the VP job. LBJ picked up the job as a consolation prize after Kennedy beat him in the race to the presidency. Ford didn't really run for anything except Rep and house minority leader and was picked because (IIRC) he was one of a few choices congressional leaders would confirm.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

149

^ 126

Re: Outstanding

ivyafire.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 08:07:21 PM EST

none

I don't think either of your examples really "ran" for the VP job. LBJ picked up the job as a consolation prize after Kennedy beat him in the race to the presidency. Ford didn't really run for anything except Rep and house minority leader and was picked because (IIRC) he was one of a few choices congressional leaders would confirm.

And that is a foolish mistake on the part of the voters.  We should never vote for a team we don't consider top notch.  Like it or not, we vote in 2 people who theoretically should be capable of running the country and could both be in a position to do so.  Whether we think about it or not, we should.  Just because we don't doesn't change the facts.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

24

Military Experience?

pO157.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 04:31:42 PM EST

none

I can buy that being a governor is the closest thing to being a President in the US of A. But how can people claim that acting as a governor, by itself, confers military experience? When the guard is deployed abroad they are acting in a federal capacity, and the governor has little role leading troops unless (s)he orders them out for an internal disaster. In any event, these types of orders are mostly administrative, because the state guards usually have a guy for that.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

32

Re: The Palin Shocker

HidingFromGoro.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:05:43 PM EST

none

I'd hit it.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

48

^ 32

Re: The Palin Shocker

pO157.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 06:15:17 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Focus groups say 63% of guys would as well.

And for more off topic banter, here is the most creative fark photoshop thus far of her family portrait.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

50

^ 48

Re: The Palin Shocker

T Slothrop.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 06:58:36 PM EST

none

Only 63%? There's your real shocker!

Your authority is not recognized here in Fort Kickass...

51

^ 50

Re: The Palin Shocker

pO157.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 07:05:14 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

Yeah, well, I kind of just made it up. I could go as high as 94%.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

52

^ 50

Re: The Palin Shocker

port1080.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 07:12:28 PM EST

4.50 (funny, funny)

Only 63%? There's your real shocker!

And you were giving me a hard time for being sexist?  

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

67

^ 52

Re: The Palin Shocker

T Slothrop.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:39:48 AM EST

none

Just 'cuz I would love to take a long, hard look at Palin's positions... on the issues, that is not the same thing as saying that she is intellectually challenged.

Personally I prefer to lust after highly intelligent, competent women.

Your authority is not recognized here in Fort Kickass...

49

^ 32

Re: The Palin Shocker

Lou.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 06:19:43 PM EST

none

Ahhh, but the bigger question is that once you tripped your lever, would you still respect her policies in the morning?

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

66

Initial Reactions, Subject To Change

uncarved block.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:31:26 AM EST

none

     Well, one thing is for sure-- any fears of a repeat of a Cheney style administration have been pretty much put to rest :)

    Will this make the campaign a lock for either side, considering Sue's prognosis? I can't see it. Historically, voters almost always consider the name at the top of the ticket, at least since the days after these things were decided at the conventions in the back rooms. Quayle didn't lose the election for the first Bush, despite Republican misgivings at the time, and if you want the clincher, consider that Al Gore- who voters have shown don't want to follow, despite his willingness to lead them*- couldn't keep Bill Clinton from winning either. This election will put that kind of CW to the test, but I can't, at first blush, see it failing to hold true. Consider the news coverage: the initial questions run along the lines of, "what do Obama/McCain expect to signal with their picks?" Once the initial hype is over (give it a week), I expect this point to be clearer.
    Given that, what does McCain signal with this choice? My first reaction is less that it's about the Hillary voters, which strikes me more as faddish "soccer moms" element of this election than anything substantive, and more about the face and image of the Republican party. While conservatives, at least some of the louder varieties anyway, spend a good deal of time pissing all over the notion of diversity and its benefits, the Republican party in general, and its media friendly pals at Fox News in particular, have grasped that this is an idea that voters really like. McCain then, IMO, is trying to bring some of this change to his campaign, and only time will tell if the base of the party is ready for it or not. Forget the "Hillary voters"-- this is all about turnout, and trying to counteract what promises to be a tidal wave of new Dem voters wanting to get in on "making history."
     Also worth considering is how this could well be the death knell for the "shrink the government to nothing" branch of the Republicans. "Oversight" and "reform" are words that imply the government has a proper role to play in all sorts of commercial and even personal realms. Caught a snippet of an earlier C-SPAN appearance by Palin, and she was stressing, in the bit I caught, making government more accessible to Alaskans, and her tone didn't imply that she believed getting rid of it was one way to alleviate their fears. But I await Urkel and his more finely attuned conservative frequency hearing to tell me whether this is "all in my head" or not.
    Will Biden "destroy" her in the debates? Well, why does he have to now? The whole Obama game plan, from what I've heard (not followed this election that closely, honestly), is to appear less like politics as usual, and a civil, quiet veep debate would play into that. Biden could have held his own against a more "attack dog" style veep choice (which was probably why he was picked on a guess), but now all he has to do is show up and talk for an hour . . and that was never something anyone was worried he couldn't pull off.
    For the record, I'll repeat the prism through which I'm viewing this election: Obama has win all the states Kerry did, plus one swing state, and all McCain has to do is equal Bush in 2004. That's a pretty damn narrow target for both sides, and I believe it will once more come down to the last week. Hardly the most revolutionary take, but I think it's worth keeping in mind nevertheless. At least it gives me an excuse not to pay too much attention until late October, anyway ;)

    *To return to my favorite bit of election trivia: without the DUI fiasco in the last days of the 2000 election, there would never have been a Florida recount. I've heard, if memory serves, from Republican pollsters and campaign consultants that it cost him almost three points in many states.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

71

^ 66

Re: Initial Reactions, Subject To Change

gerrymander.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 03:23:58 AM EST

5.00 (astute, funny)

Will this make the campaign a lock for either side, considering Sue's prognosis?

I'm not as confident as ms_sue, mostly because I'm sure there will still need to be a lot of work done to convince Clinton supporters that they can feel comfortable voting for the McCain/Palin ticket.

That said, it's worth noting the work can come from both sides. McCain/Palin needs to pull, but the same effect will take place is Obama/ Biden (and more the point, their supporters) push. For all the lip-service paid to diversity, the Left loves adversarial tactics and hates anyone who strays off the reservation. There's no room in the moral crusade to elect Obama for lukewarm emotions.

Trouble is, 2/3rds of Clinton supporters aren't fully on board with the program. That's 12% of the nation's voters, and a third of the Democratic base. If enough articles, interviews and blog posts start to make them think "the Democrats don't just oppose Hillary, they oppose women," that's a huge deal. Take a look at the electoral map, and shift it 12 points to the red -- that's your worst case scenario.

83

^ 71

Daydreaming Again?

uncarved block.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:37:51 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

    Sure, a shift twelve points would be huge-- but I'm think Jesus Christ could return and run as a Democrat, and he still might not convince that many Republicans to vote for him. I'm laying my money on those Hillary voters remaining Democrats first, and the generally even electoral demographics to stay in place. Remember all that talk before McCain won the nomination about Republicans possibly jumping ship? I dismissed the idea then, and I'm dismissing the idea of Hillary supporters crossing the line in November now. If McCain's staffers are gambling on this to win, they are going to be sorely disappointed this fall, IMO.
    The Palin nomination doesn't change the biggest hurdle to McCain winning the election, namely that the Dems have put up a candidate with some charisma for the first time since 1996. If Kerry and Gore could get that close to winning as stuffed shirts, I've got to believe that there's quiet panic (and not so quiet panic) going on over at the RNC, no matter how the boosters and bloggers feel about it. Oh, and not having as much money isn't going to help in September either . . .

     As my title indicated though, I reserve the right to change my mind-- which is only sensible when a relative unknown is headed on to the national stage. This is the Big Story right now, and this week, but will it still have any mojo two weeks from now? Given the short attention span demonstrated frequently by the media, this seems a fairly safe bet :)

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

70

^ 66

Resolved -- Veep Debates Decide Nothing.

MayorBob.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:26:35 AM EST

none

I can't think back to a single Veep debate which really had an appreciable effect on the outcome of the election.  Granted, Lloyd Bentsen's send up of Dan Quayle was priceless: "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy: I knew Jack Kennedy; Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy."  But remind me who won the election that featured that exchange?  Right, it wasn't Michael Dukakis taking the oath of office in January of 1989; it was Dan Quayle's running mate, George Bush.

Has there been another Veep debate that even rose to the level of raising enough interest to lure people away from a cable movie or internet porn?  I don't think so.  But, I could be off the mark and this could be the Veep debate that draws huge viewer numbers because everyone will want to see Palin and how she fares against Biden.  But, I really don't think so.  In all likelihood the debate will come and go and nobody will notice it had any effect.  But debating isn't what either Biden or Palin are there for.

Biden's purpose is, first of all, help Obama overcome his shortcomings in Pennsylvania because Obama did miserably once the votes were counted outside of Philly and Pittsburgh.  Biden is there to remind white, middle class Pennsylvanians that he's one of them and he's with Obama and not McCain.  I don't see McCain having any real pull on the voters Biden will have and Palin certainly won't.  Beyond that, Biden will be out on the campaign trail to all those states which are either on the fence or weakly Republican, trying to appeal to the same type of voter that he's trying to appeal to in Pennsylvania.  Biden helps shore up Obama's thinness when it comes to foreign policy issues, but foreign policy issues rarely have that much of an effect on general election outcomes and Obama has credibility up the wazoo on the key foreign policy issue of the day -- the war in Iraq.

Palin's purpose is to establish McCain as a guy who's serious about not accepting business as usual in his administration.  She's got a well-earned reputation as a maverick and McCain had a bit of one until he began toadying around Bush over the past couple of years.  She also will keep the social conserv, er neanderthals quiet on the Republican right, because she's more conservative on issues like abortion, gun control, rampant oil drilling and teaching creationism in the schools than McCain is.  Any additional voters she can draw in because she's female (despite what her real position on issues important to women) is just gravy.

I don't see Palin's pick as sewing things up for McCain.  We have over three months left to go and McCain still has to disconnect himself from an administration he has sided with so frequently over the past four years.  Maybe if he keeps saying he's really not Bush and things will be different in a John McCain administration, he'll be able to convince a good number of people that that's true.  But, so many things can go wrong so quickly that McCain's connection to Bush is still fresh in enough people's minds that, say, Gustav slamming into N'awlins and the levees break again reflooding that city again while Bush's FEMA teams run around like participants at a Chinese Fire Drill, it will undo his most prodigious efforts to make people forget.

 

Tending to final details.

112

Old and busted? No, New Hotness!

pO157.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:42:29 PM EST

none

The "hotness" for this discussion is currently 234. That is the first time I have seen it above 200.

Either VPILFs get more press, or this place is really livening it up after the end of summer doldrums. Or both. Or Neither.

I'm gonna go get a hot pocket.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

128

^ 112

Allow Me To Ask A Stupid Question.

MayorBob.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 11:22:33 AM EST

none

How does one find out the hotness of a TnT thread?

Tending to final details.

130

^ 128

Re: Allow Me To Ask A Stupid Question.

profwhat.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 12:18:20 PM EST

5.00 (informative, informative)

It's in a comment in the HTML source.  Do a "View Page Source" (control-U with Firefox) and in the first screenful or so you should see a line, by itself, that says something like:

<!-- hotness: 264.5 -->

It's hidden so that people don't make a big deal about it.

162

^ 130

ZOMG! NEW HOTNESS RECORD! BIG DEAL!

pO157.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:26:28 PM EST

none

305.5.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

129

^ 112

Check it and see: I've got a fever of 234

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 11:54:13 AM EST

none

The "hotness" for this discussion is currently 234
Awwwww,  yeah.

121

The poll needs qualifiers

ivyafire.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 06:00:10 AM EST

none

Palin absolutely is the right choice for McCain, because hopefully she is the final nail in his coffin. ;)

I don't think that's what the author had in mind, though, when writing the poll.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

186

Sorry...

ms sue.

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:22:53 PM EST

none

if this has been posted already.

193

^ 186

Re: Sorry...

ivyafire.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 01:37:31 AM EST

none

Oh yes, Sue, that's some of the stuff I was talking about that zyxwvutsr claims are lies thought up by the Daily Kos ;)  

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

211

^ 193

Re: Sorry...

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 11:12:49 AM EST

none

Hey, did you hear that Daily Kos had a piece claiming that Palin faked a pregnancy?

It must be true!

214

^ 211

Re: Sorry...

ivyafire.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 02:28:22 PM EST

none

Nope, they're full of crap on that one.

Just like this site, they're only as reliable as the people who post there, and ,you were wrong while I was right.  ;)

But the other link is based on fact, and backed up in mainstream media, just like I saidso pffffffft!

:p

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

217

^ 214

Re: Sorry...

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:19:31 PM EST

none

...you were wrong while I was right
I have to admit that is possible, but it doesn't seem likely.

What was I wrong about?

219

^ 217

Re: Sorry...

ivyafire.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:23:40 PM EST

none

The scandal with her brother in law was not 'thought up' by the daily Kos, and was, in fact, reported in mainstream media.

Just wait, there will be more.  She's going to make Hillary look like a saint.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

221

^ 219

Re: Sorry...

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 03:29:44 PM EST

none

The scandal with her brother in law was not 'thought up' by the daily Kos, and was, in fact, reported in mainstream media
That's funny, I don't think I ever claimed that. (Perhaps you only imagined I wrote that.)

205

Crosspostin' this (not mine)

HidingFromGoro.

Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 07:13:56 AM EST

none


miss alaska, so they said
smell of dead fish went to head
former mayor of frozen hamlet
god tells her mccain might can it
so she stands for female race
laughs at women's rights disgrace
disbelieves private penumbra
views on issues bare like tundra
stepped in small domestic spat
says "patronage? the fuck is that?"
scant of record, but staff put:
"at least she not 'fleet of foot'"
up with babies, down with pounds
now her kid he got the downs
but soon she have new room and board
thanks to jesus, our cruel lord

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

This story: 227 comments (1 from subqueue)
Post a Comment