Diary

Third Party Ticket?

thefadd.

Posted to Diary on Thu Sep 18, 2008 at 05:43:29 PM EST. RSS.

For each of the last two elections at least, it has been a common political theme to complain that the Republican and Democratic candidates for President are no more than peas in the same political pod, so to speak. Comedian David Letterman, for example referred to George Bush and Al Gore as one person named "Al Bore" in 2000 while the television show South Park referred to the 2004 choice between George Bush and John Kerry as a choice between a douche and turd sandwich.

This year seems starkly different but still many voters are disaffected by the "mainstream" parties. Now comes an effort to unite them in some fashion and possibly offer a legitimate "No" vote for all those who hate blacks and war heroes. It is endorsed by Ron Paul and backed by Paulites, though Rob himself is not running.

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4

Stability And Stagnation

uncarved block.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 10:15:17 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant, interesting)

    I dunno. What price are we willing to pay for stability? Is a constantly dissatisfied 10-20% of the electorate worth not having separatist movements and/or the threat of civil war? This may sound hyperbolic, but look around the world-- how many nations with a fraction of the US population have to deal with at least low level threats from within? Here in the states, there's pretty much zilch, at least on the organized level. Even after WWII, Europe has had its fair share of this bullshit, and places like Africa and South America?
    Boredom is a shitty reason for revolution. I've never lived in a nation with a parliamentary system, where the minority groups are allowed at least a tiny room at the table, but from afar these governments and their people don't seem much happier with a tiny bit of power instead of none-- yet Neal Boortz, for one, has suggested just such a move, because he's tired of Libertarians being disenfranchised. Not persecuted, mind you, or oppressed, but just ignored by the two majority parties. Personally, I'm not so sure that this isn't a great state  of affairs.
    The main argument I can think of, off the top of my head, is that the American political class has always seemed far more warlike than the population at large, and has been since the founding. But I'm not so sure that Americans really dislike war that much, so long as "we" win . . which makes me wonder what these politicians would really do differently, once handed the power to make the big decisions, or if they would do it differently (say, the Green Party), that this isn't a big reason for their lack of success.
    The only big electoral change I might endorse, one that might be tried at the state level first, would be the addition of "none of the above" as a voting choice, with certain minimum thresholds- say 40%- for the top vote getter to actually take office. This seems far more likely to create change than any third party, because you wouldn't have to vote for somebody in order to register dissatisfaction with the status quo. But this is a serious challenge to the two parties, and they'll likely ignore it in favor of promoting non-threatening third parties instead.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: Stability And Stagnation

delete me.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 08:40:18 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

When a party goes down in the two-party system, how huge is the impact? Is the fall of the Whigs a contributory factor to the War of Northern Aggre- er, the Civil War?

- derumi (del-me)
"Bobby Fischer? Man, that guy is crazy!" - Mike Tyson

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^ 8

Interesting Tangents

uncarved block.

Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:45:25 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

    I was going to point out that when the Whigs died out, there had been a tradition of strong regional parties (Anti-Masons, Anti-Federalists, etc), which made the collapse of a major party less shocking-- folks had something to jump to, as compared to the almost nothing they'd have today. (Natural Law Party? Bueller?)
    But then I started thinking about how third or smaller parties seemed to have done better when communications was a lot slower, and a lot more dangerous the further west you went. Were third parties doomed to obscurity the day the telegraph (or as one author has called it, "the Victorian Internet") shortened communication delays from days to minutes? On the one hand, there were fairly national groups like the Know-Nothings, who IIRC elected candidates on both coasts; OTOH, it is true that there have only been two significant third party runs since the telegraph (Theodore Roosevelt, and Perot) became widespread. Something to meditate on while I'm stocking books tomorrow.

     As far as the current day goes, a party collapsing today would be catastrophic, and probably a sign that civil war was coming up quick. But I can't think of anything big enough to actually demolish or split one of the two major parties today. Conservatives made some noise about trying to eliminate the Democrats during the last couple years, but this was due to something along the lines of mass hysteria, and some kind of masturbatory political fantasy. (Which describes a lot of conservative bestsellers, actually.) If, as I believe, winning elections means cobbling together enough single issue voters to put a candidate over the top, then any party based on this strategy is going to be awfully difficult to tear apart from within-- and impossible to remove from without. Of course, every status quo looks stable until it falls apart . . .

    Thanks for reminding me-- next time I see a copy of The South Was Right come through the store, I should buy it.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: Stability And Stagnation

thefadd.

Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:53:36 PM EST

none

The Whig party's problem was emblematic of the nation's problems. It was built of an anti-Jackson coalition so it included both "States Rights" (ie pro-slavery) Southerners and protectionist northerners who were anti-expansion and thus anti-slavery. Slavery is absolutely what killed the Whigs. It's not too different from the unholy marriage of the Religious Right and the George F. Will wing of conservatism. The only question is will an issue rise up with such force as to drive a stake between the two. Should the economy continue to falter and the Clintonian internationalist interests push further North American unification, that would be the only issue I could see splitting that party.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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Re: Stability And Stagnation

thefadd.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:26:39 PM EST

none

Who's to say that keeping them "disenfranchised" isn't what keeps away the petty threats of deeper internal conflict?

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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Temptation Tots

uncarved block.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 10:10:30 AM EST

none

     Yeah, the lesson would be then that a little power only increases the thirst to have more. It could also just mean that these third parties are the source of change for the larger parties, because when they hit a certain level of popularity (think Ross Perot), the two large parties quietly change to reflect the changing times. To put it in lofty terms, they're the churning that keeps stability from descending into stagnation.
    OTOH, it could just be that the populace drives the politics, which would mean that Americans just aren't that interested in change, and are fairly homogeneous when you get right down to it. (Ezra Pound suggested as much in the 30s, IIRC the date correctly.) Which would make third parties the outlet for those kvetching without intending to enact real change-- a constant whining in the face of good times, to be uncharitable.
    Nah, probably not, as appealing as that is for me; the activists appear to believe what they say, and it would be very bad faith (on my part) to question their sincerity.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: Temptation Tots

thefadd.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 01:37:42 PM EST

none

Who changed to incorporate Ross Perot's concepts? What about Pat Buchanon's Reform Party run? If anything, the two big parties are further from Perot's responsible management style and third parties are deader than ever.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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My Mistake

uncarved block.

Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:20:25 PM EST

none

    For some reason- possibly because I wasn't paying much attention at the time- I thought Perot was the one who started the ball rolling on term limits. I would note that he very much ran against "business as usual" in Washington, but this was more about style than substance, as many candidates have run and won on that issue.
     One way Perot in 1992 did change both parties was by creating a sense that "swing" voters were where it was going to be at for the next couple elections. I use the quotes because the very notion of the "swing voter" is unclear: are they really so out of it they can't decide until forced to on election day? Really so even handed they'll refuse to decide unless one candidate screws up (or the converse) so badly they don't deserve to be in office? Or is it rather that they don't want to tell some pollster anything they'll have to live up to later? Or just waiting for the best economic proposal/bribe to decide their vote? Given the partisanship that sells so well on the cable news shows, I'd guess something like the latter pair are closer to the truth. Indeed, I don't think it's any coincidence that Republicans are struggling now, because they can't trumpet tax cuts loud and clear across the land . . .
    But I digress.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

1

Channeling

profwhat.

Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 04:21:11 PM EST

none

Allow me to channel the collective voice of a personified two-party system:

"Oo!  I'm so scared!"

American third parties consist of the ideologically pure fringe who are incapable of compromising even a single principle.  Therefore, they are, collectively, incapable of joining together and working as a coherent whole.  Please: we have, what, 4 different parties with the word "Socialist" in their name?  If the people who ran these organizations were at all inclined toward pragmatism and compromise, they wouldn't be in third parties to begin with.

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Re: Channeling

pO157.

Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 04:43:38 PM EST

none

On the contrary. The two major parties are beyond inclined towards compromise. How else could you explain the abortion that is the Iraq war and the rest of Mr. Bush's shenanigans continuing without the complicity of the Democratic party?

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Re: Channeling

MayorBob.

Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 05:28:58 PM EST

none

Which is the point of profwhat's post, I think.  Politics is the art of the possible -- it's what results from negotiation and compromise.  The problem with many of the third parties is it's all or nothing at all and members find themselves comfortable with that position.  Nothing wrong with that if you're psychologically prepared to forever be on the fringes of political power in the US.  I've flirted with third parties and voted for enough third party and even non-party candidates (I wrote in McCain's name back in 2000) in my day.  But, I've become enough of a realist and fatalist to realize the two party dynamic which typifies politics US-style is simply never going to change, at least not in my lifetime.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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