Business

Breaking the bank

wetkarma.

Posted to Business on Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 09:11:52 AM EST (promoted from Diaries by port1080). RSS.

I never want to see another story about how we can't afford the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Under the US bailout plan, the government proposes to buy the mortgage loans of virtually every under-performing 'sub-primze' mortgage in America.

Calculated cost? $700b. Its so expensive, that we will have raise our debt ceiling limit to pay for it.

Predictions:

  1. Future administrations will 'write off' mortgages as part of some 'homes for the poor' program. You will get to hear about children who will be put out in the street if the government doesn't pay for their house.

  2. Our Debt to GDP ratio will ultimately rise to in excess of 100% within 10 years. (With this bill we'd be up to about 72%.)

  3. America within our lifetime will become a nation of sharecroppers -- working to pay the interest on the massive debt load. The seeds of default are now not only planted but being assiduously watered.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by wetkarma, promoted from diaries, business, politics, bailouts, 2008-financial-crisis (all tags)

This story: 73 comments (0 from subqueue)
Post a Comment
13

Good News, Bad News And WTF.

MayorBob.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 09:07:50 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

First the good news:

  1.  We escaped a complete Wall Street collapse last Thursday by virtue of the federal government pumping $105 billion into the market to stave off a massive sell off.  I thought the markets had automatic shut off valves when they were inundated that way that wouldn't force the markets to collapse.

  2. With the approval of the Federal Reserve, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley became bank holding companies.  This marks the end of investment banks as institutions on Wall Street.  This means both companies will be able to form commercial banks able to take deposits, bolstering the resources of both institutions.

Bad News:

1. Prior to declaring bankruptcy, Lehman Brothers authorized a $2.5 billion bonus pool to be distributed among the 10,000 employees of its New York operation.  Barclays, the bank which is buying significant portions of Lehman, seems to be ready to implement the bonus.  Why is any bankruptcy referee going to approve this?  Why can't this bonus plan be treated the same way as the golden parachutes which were supposed to pay the former heads of Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac.  Those two geniuses are trying to figure out directions to the closest unemployment office after their $25 million reward for failure was cancelled.

WTF:

1. Initially, the proposed bailout would only go to rescue US banks.  Now, it seems the Treasury Department has inserted verbiage in the bailout which would include any foreign bank "doing substantial business in the US."   My mind is boggled that we're talking about dumping close to $1 trillion in debt onto the shoulders of future generations of Americans and we're talking about rescuing foreign banks.  I say again, WTF, over.

Finally, if I might humbly suggest, this should be the first diary entry to be promoted to the front page, pronto.
     

Illegitimi non carborundum.

29

^ 13

Re: Good News, Bad News And WTF.

thefadd.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 02:02:50 PM EST

5.00 (interesting, astute)

With the approval of the Federal Reserve, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley became bank holding companies. This marks the end of investment banks as institutions on Wall Street. This means both companies will be able to form commercial banks able to take deposits, bolstering the resources of both institutions.

I'm simply not convinced this is good news. The idea behind the renewed call for mergers of investment banking and commercial banking is that the commercial banks were "better managed" by both their management and government regulation. Now investment banks are "coming back into the fold" of government oversight and they should be "stronger" with commercial banking within the same company.

For my money, though, that division is the only thing that saved us from total disaster on the commercial side this time around. Are you telling me that 3-7 years out, those same banks are going to be pushing the envelope of similar (but differently named) risky investments down the road? The risk will always be there--it was a good idea to keep it the hell away from the commercial banking sector. I think this is very bad news indeed...

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

15

^ 13

Re: Good News, Bad News And WTF.

port1080.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 09:12:37 AM EST

4.00 (informative)

Finally, if I might humbly suggest, this should be the first diary entry to be promoted to the front page, pronto.

Well how 'bout that, it works!  Props to profwhat!

17

^ 13

Re: Good News, Bad News And WTF.

skeptic.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 09:57:41 AM EST

none

It does sound terrible for the US to be betting another trillion dollars in debt.  But look at it this way.  Since the US was already ten trillion dollars in debt, another trillion only increases the existing debt by 10%.  Now, that's not so bad, is it?

The US has been on an insane borrowing binge that started back in the mid 1960's and accelerated greatly under President Reagan, and is now completely out of control under President George W. Bush.  But borrowing money is irresistible.  We have GOT to buy certain necessary things (whether it is a war in Iraq, or a bailout of the financial sector, etc.) yet we HATE to raise taxes or to cut other spending in order to pay for these things, and that leaves us with only one option, which is of course to borrow.  And we never like to repay what we borrow, since of course we have more urgent uses for any money that we may have.  So the debt can only grow.  Until finally the government itself is bankrupt.  Then they can just de-value the currency and start all over again!  See, everything works out.

18

^ 17

I Should Have Added.

MayorBob.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 10:12:14 AM EST

none

Dumping $1 trillion in debt (if we're lucky).  By that I mean that Bush is pushing for a $700 billion bump and the Democrats are talking about adding some sort of "Main Street" help to offset the emphasis on rescuing Wall Street that's contained in the $700 billion proposal.  What that means is yet another stimulus to individual taxpayers.

Bush says he needs this bailout NLT Friday, or whatever.  The Democrats, and those Republican lawmakers who aren't interested in ending their incumbency, will add another $200 to $500 billion in debt to the $700 billion figure.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

52

Breaking my back

Lou.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:18:04 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

I don't wanna be a sharecropper!  I'm too tall to do low picking.  I get a massive backache.  I could pick apples I suppose, but I'm a big guy and gravity LOVES me.  I fall off a ladder?  You guessed it...broken back.  Somebody, please do something!

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

58

Robert Reich

thefadd.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 02:09:53 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

As usual, he explains it best.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

59

Suddenly I Understand the Rush To Bailout

logan.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 03:48:46 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant, informative, astute)

All week long Treasury Secretary Paulson and Fed Chairman Bernanke have been screaming that we need to act fast fast fast to avert disaster. Me not being...what's the word... stupid, I get suspicious when someone tells me that I need to give them money NOW and there's no time to explain any of the details. Before I figured that the rush was so the GOP could be seen to be doing something about this mess before Congress adjourns. Then they could all hit the campaign trail crowing about how they did something about this mess and they're only trying to protect the American people from fat cats and elitists.

I was wrong.

Today it was revealed that the FBI is investigating 26 cases of potential corporate fraud related to the collapse of the U.S. mortgage lending industry. That's right, we've been asked to pony up $700 billion dollars to save a bunch of billionaires who managed to destroy their own companies. It's OK, though, we aren't just giving them the money, the American taxpayers will be shareholders. We're investing in these companies. The very next day we find out that these same companies are under investigation for defrauding their investors.

But hey! I'm sure they'll be more honest and responsible when it's someone else's money they're playing with, right? After all, Henry Paulson assured us in his Congressional testimony, "I believe we need oversight. We need oversight. We need protection. We need transparency." Like the man said when he referred to the three-page outline of his plan, "it would be presumptuous of us in that outline to come up with an oversight mechanism. That's the role of Congress."

Sadly, Paulson is a bald-faced liar who (if he was sworn in) perjured himself before Congress. His own outline, the one he wrote and cited in that short clip, the one he presented to Congress less than a week ago very specifically addresses the oversight mechanism: there won't be one:

"Sec. 8. Review. Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."

Got that? Bush's Treasury Secretary stood before Congress and the American People and railed about how important he thinks it is to have oversight of the bailout when the actual plan he presented less than a week ago with explicitly states that there will be no oversight whatsoever. And somehow we should just trust him?

A little digging finds another little nugget of information: the Bush Administration has had this plan sitting on the shelf for months. From rollcall.com:

In Tuesday's press briefing [White House Deputy Press Secretary Tony] Fratto "insisted that the plan was not slapped together and had been drawn up as a contingency over previous months and weeks by administration officials. He acknowledged lawmakers were getting only days to peruse it, but he said this should be enough."

It's enough alright. I've had enough. Not a dime for these criminals. Not a penny. As a matter of fact, let's start with full IRS audits of every employee of every firm that's begging for a chunk of taxpayer money. From there let's go on to the full-on proctological exam of every account and transaction these companies have ever been party to. At the end of the day the members of the Boards of Directors should all look like they've been to a Goatse.cx lookalike contest. After all, when you apply for a loan the lender is supposed to check into your finances and see if you're a good risk. If they'd done that to begin with we wouldn't be in this mess.

You want the government to bail you out? Sign this document stating that every transaction you have been party to has been completely above board and followed both the letter and spirit of the law and that you agree to the maximum penalties allowed by law for each and every violation regardless of intent. Now surrender your passport. If you need to leave the country for any reason you will be escorted by Federal Marshals. As a cost-cutting measure to help fund your little bailout we've decided that everyone has to fly coach. Keep in mind that Deputies Milholland and Jacques here both lost their houses to foreclosure and had to move in with their respective in-laws. They also love chili, the hotter the better. Just to drive the point home I'd like you to meet Horse. We've already picked him out to be your cellmate if we find any discrepancies. Here's a hint: they don't call him "Horse" because he's got a ponytail.

Attempting to defraud the government of $700 billion in a time of war? Sounds like treason to me.

-=Logan
Research, facts, a Republican needs not these things.

66

Why $700 Billion? Because.

logan.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 11:03:54 PM EST

5.00 (informative, brilliant)

Among the questions no one seemed to have an answer to was why $700 billion? Why not $100 billion to get started and more when it's required? Why not $7 billion or $70 billion or $700 skrillion kadjillion dollars? How did Henry Paulson at that oddly specific number?

Forbes.com managed to get an answer:

"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."

Let that sink in for a moment. Read it again. Check the link to make sure it's not a typo or that it's not from The Onion.

"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."

How did Henry Paulson decide that it would take $700 billion to fix this mess? He just pulled the figure out of his ass. Can anyone here imagine trying to get that past their boss? "How long will it take you to write up the Johnson contract?" "700 hours." "Why so long?" "It's not based on any particular data point. I just wanted to choose a really large number."

Here's another figure I just pulled out of my ass: you have 60 minutes to clean out your office, Hank.

-=Logan
Research, facts, a Republican needs not these things.

67

^ 66

Re: Why $700 Billion? Because.

Shy Elf.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 11:38:39 PM EST

none

A good rule of thumb for any bailout plan is that it will cost roughly 3x as much as the initial estimate.  This estimate doesn't look to be any different.

69

^ 67

Re: Why $700 Billion? Because.

pO157.

Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 07:19:17 AM EST

none

When government programs are budgeted in the same way as building projects using union labor, well... that scares me.

70

^ 69

Re: Why $700 Billion? Because.

Lou.

Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 08:27:21 AM EST

none

Absolutely...I'm glad they didn't use union labor to rebuild the I-35 bridge.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

71

^ 70

Re: Why $700 Billion? Because.

pO157.

Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 08:42:10 AM EST

none

Was it really built using non-union labor? I haven't been able to find anything supporting that.

Anywho, union labor != guaranteed quality. However, it usually equals higher labor costs and benefits.

2

Wow. I used the F word a lot.

pO157.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 at 09:10:48 AM EST

4.80 (astute, astute, astute)

Also, I would like to state that:

I never want to see another story about how we can't afford the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is a false dichotomy. We can afford neither the mortgage bailout nor the war in Iraq. That type of argument is similar to the folks who argue against cuts in welfare or entitlements as long as corporate handouts continue. Just because both are wrong doesn't justify the existence of the lesser evil.

Thank you for your time and a thoughtful diary entry.

4

^ 2

We can't afford not to

JimmyHavok.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 at 06:05:16 PM EST

5.00 (astute, astute)

The sad truth is that we have an economy based on debt, and if no one has the guts to lend anyone any money, that economy will collapse.  You think you live in a dystopian hellhole now?  Think about what it would be like if there was 25% unemployment.

A lot of sleazy bastards will make money off of this, no doubt.  Look at how well Neil Bush came out of the S&L crisis.  But the alternative is worse.

5

^ 4

Re: We can't afford not to

tomc.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 at 07:44:07 PM EST

none

We'll see how this plays out.  Apparently the Dems want a more comprehensive plan.

6

^ 4

Control the pain.

pO157.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 at 07:45:23 PM EST

none

We know the market instability would happen now if these companies were allowed to fail. Let it happen. Ride it out.

Don't jack up the national debt to be 75% or whatever of our GDP. Do you actually think this is a long term solution? It's not. The pain will be a lot worse, just at some unknown point in the future.

7

^ 6

Re: Control the pain.

JimmyHavok.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 at 10:49:22 PM EST

none

Ride it out.

What do you think an economy where no one could borrow money would look like?

10

^ 7

Re: Control the pain.

joshv.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 07:18:08 AM EST

3.75 (astute, interesting, interesting)

It really won't matter in the end.  This will just postpone the final reckoning a few months, and in the end will amount to just another trillion in debt to be repudiated.

A bit OT - but you know, I am a bit pissed at McCain.  He should have stuck by his "fundamentals" comment and come out against this bailout.  An ad along the line of "What Mr. Obama?  You don't think the US has one of the most productive workforces on the planet?  You don't think we have first class infrastructure - roads, highways, energy grid telecommunications - which support some of the most innovative and productive businesses on the planet?  You don't realize our university system is the envy of the world?  America has a 200+ year history as a free market democracy - these are our fundamentals, and they are strong".

Our economic fundamentals are indeed quite strong.  We need to wipe out the notional values of these odd financial constructs we've been wasting our time building these last decades and get back to making real things, and saving real money to buy them.  I think in his gut, this is what McCain really believes - but it's hard to find a economist who will back you on this these days.  McCain looks and acts like he's out of his depth because he is.  But what nobody seems to get is that we all our.  We have absolutely no idea what will become of all this money we pumped into the financial house of card built by Wall Street.  We have no idea what the solution is, so we throw money at it, because the government has a convenient printing press.

30

^ 10

Re: getting a bit pissed at McCain

natophonic.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 02:59:55 PM EST

5.00 (interesting, astute)

If you want to be pissed, how about getting pissed that McCain has Phil Gramm as a top economic adviser? Gramm was instrumental in scrapping regulations that kept consumer banking (where the US government is on the hook to back deposits via the FDIC) separated from investment banking (where 'innovative' new investment 'products' not infrequently go 'poof' and 'bang').

As utterly disgusting as the whole $700B+ bailout is, it probably will be cheaper than covering the deposits of several large bank failures. What do you think the acquisition of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America was all about?

We're being fed all sorts of assurances that any company accepting a handout from the $700B stash will be very very, very tightly regulated. Really, very. Perhaps Treasury Secretary Paulson will be a Thomas Beckett to the finance industry's King Henry II, but I'm not very optimistic about that.

35

^ 30

Re: What???

Jackkeefe.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 10:31:50 PM EST

4.00 (interesting, astute, astute)

Phil Gramm is about as much of  a top economic advisor to John McCain as Franklin Raines is to Obama. Considering that  Franklin Raines mismanagement of Fannie Mae is  more causally related to the collapse than Gramm's authorship of a bill that even Joe Biden supported, that I don't think this is a pissing contest that Democrats want to get in.

I'm really surprised by the Democrats obsession with Phil Gramm.  Apparently, he had the power to both pass bills out of Congress and sign them into law himself. You's think the silliness of singling out  Phil Gramm for supporting a bill that passed both houses of Congress with overwhelming bipartisan support (including Joe Biden) and was signed into law by President Clinton  would be self evident, but what do I know? Its also curious that Jim Leach, one of the co-sponsers of the bill, was rewarded with a prime time speaking slot at the Democrat's convention last month.

11

^ 10

Re: Control the pain.

port1080.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 07:32:30 AM EST

none

roads, highways, energy grid telecommunications

Our roads are falling apart due to lack of investment.  Remember the Minneapolis bridge collapse?  Pennsylvania selling its iconic Turnpike to raise money for road repairs?  As for the energy grid - are we talking about the one that has periodic brownouts in California & the Northeast during hot summers?  The one that is just barely below full capacity?  The one serviced by a confusing mess of partially de-regulated utility companies that have been raising rates like mad (at least here in the Northeast) for the last few years?  And then we have telecommunications - where the US is falling increasingly behind other countries in terms of broadband penetration, where we pay more for less.  That's the infrastructure you're claiming should be our pride and joy?

And let's not forget that even when we're looking at that minimal amount of infrastructure, much of it recently has been built and/or supported by private money, raised on those very convoluted bond markets that you've just denigrated.  Many states (Texas, Virginia, and now Pennsylvania) are turning to private companies to build and/or run toll roads to add infrastructure development to their states.  The telecommunications infrastructure we do have was built almost entirely through private money.  Since de-regulation, much of the energy grid improvements we have seen have come through private investment.  Now that the credit markets are collapsing, where will that money come from?  You're a free marketer, right?  Should the state get back in to owning and building those parts of the infrastructure?  If they should be privately funded - where's the money going to come from if we let the bond markets fail?

43

^ 11

Off topic.

pO157.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 12:36:30 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

I've said it a thousand times. Forget tolling I-80 or raising the Penna turnpike rates.

Put on a Ohio to New Jersey stock car race on I-80 every year or whatever. Use the money (and oh yes there will be tons of cash -- sell seats at prime locations or PPV contracts for the tunnel cams to see the gnarly crashes) to pay for the roads.

54

^ 43

Re: Off topic.

Lou.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:28:31 PM EST

none

PPV contracts for the tunnel cams to see the gnarly crashes) to pay for the roads.

I wonder what something like would look like

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

12

^ 11

Re: Control the pain.

joshv.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 08:11:12 AM EST

none

You will note that a new bridge now spans that gap, built in record time.   Almost every major highway within 300 miles of where I live has been rebuilt or is in the process of being rebuilt.  Penn is selling the turnpike because they lack the political balls to charge fares that will pay for appropriate repairs, so they are doing the next best thing, enabling a private company to be the scapegoat for the inevitable fare hikes.

As for the energy grid - it's designed to operate at maximum capacity as that's where it reaches maximum efficiency.  And god forbid you actually be forced to pay rates that would allow the energy companies to maintain and upgrade their infrastructure.  As for telecommunications, we have the densist, cheapest fiber backbone on the planet.  Because of our dispersed living situation here in the US moving that bandwidth out to the "leaf nodes" is more expensive than in countries with higher population densities - but we will get there.  What matters most though from a standpoint of "economic fundamentals" is that businesses have cheap and easy access to all of the bandwidth they need.  Though we can't stream 3 simultaneous HD porn movies to our homes like they can in Seoul, we certainly have enough bandwidth to support almost any conceivable telecommuting arrangement  - a fact which many American businesses have taken advantage of to increase flexibility and productivity.

14

^ 12

Re: Control the pain.

port1080.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 09:09:57 AM EST

5.00 (informative, informative)

Pennsylvania is selling the Turnpike to generate money to fix its other roads and highways (because a gas tax increase has been deemed political untenable, and because the Federal government won't allow them to toll I80), not to fix the Turnpike itself.  As for your other points...

Rebuilding America Special Report: How to Fix U.S. Infrastructure

American infrastructure is in trouble, from collapsed bridges to leaking dams. In a yearlong investigation, Popular Mechanics uncovered the fresh ideas, smart engineering and new technology we need to fix it. Here's the plan.

Electrical Use Hits New Highs in Much of U.S.

Experts say demand is rising faster than the ability to meet it, which over the long run could pose the risk of both local and regional failures.

Is aging infrastructure slowing the U.S.?

For roughly a century, the United States has had the world's biggest economy. One of its strengths has been its infrastructure, from the rails and telegraph lines laid in the 19th century to the airports and fiber-optic networks of today. But as the United States struggles to stay ahead of China, is its aging infrastructure slowing it down?

In almost every area - from waterworks to bridges and dams, highways to mass transit - many experts have answered "yes." A report card by the American Society of Civil Engineers, issued in 2005, gave the nation C's and D's in 14 of 15 categories, with an "incomplete" added for security.

Engineers See Dangers in Aging Infrastructure

this country is not investing enough in keeping its vital infrastructure in good repair, engineering experts warn.

"Governments do not want to pay for maintenance because it is not sexy," said John Ochsendorf, a structural engineer and an associate professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

He said the bulk of the nation's highway system was built in the 1950s and 1960s and is ageing. Referring to the collapse in Minneapolis, he said "This type of event could become more common."

"We have a major infrastructure problem in this country," said Maureen L. McAvey, an executive vice president with the Urban Land Institute, which recently published a report on global infrastructure issues. "The civil engineers have estimated that we have a $1.7 trillion shortfall in this country alone"

U.S. lags behind in broadband infrastructure

Expanding broadband infrastructure in the United States would not simply improve the speed of connections for entertainment purposes, but it will also bring a wealth of knowledge to more citizens in more areas. With greater reach, the United States could see improvements in education, health care, and first-responder capabilities as communications become faster, more efficient, and more effective.

AT&T: Internet to hit full capacity by 2010

Cicconi, who was speaking at the event as part of a wider series of meetings with U.K. government officials, said that at least $55 billion worth of investment was needed in new infrastructure in the next three years in the U.S. alone, with the figure rising to $130 billion to improve the network worldwide. "We are going to be butting up against the physical capacity of the Internet by 2010," he said.

He claimed that the "unprecedented new wave of broadband traffic" would increase 50-fold by 2015 and that AT&T is investing $19 billion to maintain its network and upgrade its backbone network.

Do you still want to argue that our infrastructure is "fundamentally sound"?  (just like our economy!)  You say "And god forbid you actually be forced to pay rates that would allow the energy companies to maintain and upgrade their infrastructure" - but my point is that before deregulation, companies managed to keep their rates down and maintain the infrastructure.  Deregulation was supposed to lead to even more upgrades, and to lower prices - and yet we've barely seen the upgrades, and we certainly haven't seen the lower prices.  On top of that, when price increases have come they haven't been even remotely transparent.  In Delaware we saw 70% rate hikes with very little notice (it was in the papers for a while, but they didn't announce them directly until just before they happened).  After intense political pressure the power company instituted some payment plans (which they charged interest on!), but they didn't even want to do that bare minimum until they were forced to.  And let's not even talk about the deregulation of the phone companies, which was supposed to give us competition, but instead has lead to a stunning consolidation within the industry and very minimal competition except in the most major of markets.  And you still haven't answered my question about where private, deregulated companies are supposed to get their money, if not the bond markets?  If you don't bail out the bond markets, you can't raise funds.  You can't raise funds, you don't get (private) infrastructure improvements.  So if you really want to "get back to making real things, and saving real money to buy them" you need to recognize that the time when we did that (the 1940s through the 1960s, I guess?) was also one of the times in American history when we had the most government direct investment in our infrastructure (all the Depression-era work programs, the Federally funded Interstate system, even the project that became the basis of the Internet came out of Federal money) and things were most highly regulated.  It's only since deregulation and the fetishization of the market that we've seen "these odd financial constructs we've been wasting our time building these last decades".  You can't have it both ways - if you want the markets to be the solution, you have to accept that there will be the sort of shenanigans we're seeing today, and that money will go where financiers think is most productive (i.e., generally it won't go to infrastructure, since productive means "will give high rates of return").  If you want to go back to the old days, you have to accept the regulation (and probably the somewhat slower, but hopefully more even) levels of economic growth that go along with that.

20

^ 14

Re: Control the pain.

joshv.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 11:17:05 AM EST

none

Yes, the country is clearly falling apart.  I wonder how FedEx manages to get a package to me 24 hours after I order it.  They have to transit all of those failing roads and bridges.  How did the order manage to trickle in to their fulfillment centers at 1200 baud?  Why is it that Google chooses to build it's largest data centers in the US instead of China?  Must be because of the inferior expensive bandwidth and the overpriced electricity.

Does the fact that some states have fallen behind mean that we have some sort of fundamental economic weakness?  Does the fact that a bridge in MN failed because of a design flaw have anything whatsoever to do with the overall health of our infrastructure?

I have nothing against direct government investment in infrastructure, and I will grant you that there are areas that need attention.  Though the massive expenditures of the 40-60s were because that infrastructure didn't previously exist.  Perhaps other areas of the country are different, but in the areas I drive, from Green-Bay down through Milwaukee, through Chicago, to Detroit, almost everything's been rebuilt, resurfaced and or expanded since the 60s, much of it twice, some of it three times.

21

^ 12

Horse out of a barn

Lou.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 11:27:30 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

You will note that a new bridge now spans that gap, built in record time.

I'm sure this is a great comfort to the families of the folks that died on the old, poorly maintained bridge.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

23

^ 21

Re: Horse out of a barn

joshv.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 11:34:37 AM EST

none

I am sure it won't comfort them.  Further, they will probably find no comfort in the fact that the bridge failed because of a design flaw.

25

^ 23

Re: Horse out of a barn

Lou.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 11:38:16 AM EST

none

Agreed...and there are some concerns that there might some concerns that the company that built the new bridge may have rushed it.  I hope note.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

16

^ 10

Re: Control the pain.

Shy Elf.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 09:54:50 AM EST

none

Running on the Herbert Hoover platform, are we?

The US economy is built on importing huge amounts of foreign crude oil from undependable, nonrenewable sources.  Our trade deficit is huge, pushing the dollar down.  If the dollar collapses, this oil gets much more expensive.  How is this a fundamentally sound economy?

But the big problem with McCain's statement isn't that it's wrong.  It's the utter naïvete of actually believing that it's relevant.  When there is a major financial crisis, the economy is usually fundamentally sound.  It usually undergoes a major recession or a depression anyhow.

22

^ 16

Re: Control the pain.

joshv.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 11:31:54 AM EST

5.00

I don't think anyone is contemplating following in Hoover's footsteps.  But we appear to be so afraid of repeating his mistakes that we are doing the exact opposite.  Perhaps there is a middle course?  Perhaps we can take some tough medicine and throw some free money around where appropriate?  Regardless, as I've said, I don't think it much matters.

I guess what I am getting at with the "fundamentals" is that erasing $6 trillion dollars of financial castles built in the sand doesn't erase our technological, workforce and infrastructure advantages.  No matter what we do now I am pretty much convinced we are in for a major economic downturn.  Those fundamentals are going to be very important to our recovery.

24

^ 22

Re: Control the pain.

Lou.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 11:34:51 AM EST

none

And improving those fundamentals may be even more important to the recovery.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

26

^ 10

The pain would be very real

JimmyHavok.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 12:02:38 PM EST

none

The whole world suffered through a depression that led eventually to a world war, after a similar event about 80 years ago.  It was printing money that got us out of it and into one of the most prosperous periods in human history.  I hope we've learned something from that experience.  I'd rather not go through a decade of widespread suffering to get out of this.

The best outcome would be to move our economy away from its intense dependence on debt as the source of monetary growth.  That would prevent the next inevitable crash and the next inevitable bailout.

I'm not sure we'll manage to do that, but it's a dream.

8

^ 7

Re: Control the pain.

Lou.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 12:49:59 AM EST

none

Barter, banditry, perhaps the Feudal system, an agrarian society?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

9

^ 7

Re: Control the pain.

pO157.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 06:37:21 AM EST

none

What do you think a credit crunch that is so bad no more "bailout packages" will work would look like?

Better to have it on our own terms. Do you think this will actually prevent anything in the long run?

42

^ 7

Re: Control the pain.

pO157.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 12:30:30 PM EST

none

Why are people bitching and moaning about the "horrible" 6%+ rates? My parents first mortgage was in the mid-teens.

Is 6% REALLY that bad?

Then again, as pointed out downthread, with all these bailouts it all really won't matter in the end.

34

Re: Breaking the bank

eduardo.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 09:07:44 PM EST

4.00 (informative, interesting, interesting)

WHAT HAPPENED?

I had this explained to me by someone who knows...

Step 1: Everyone knows that crappy mtges were being created and pooled and sold as securities.

Step 2: When entities like Lehman packaged and sold them, they kept the most senior tranches on books - these are supposed to have even less risk than the most senior tranches they sold - this is because they were so "safe" that the risk of them being not paid back was too low for anyone to buy.

Step 3: The whole mtge pooling thing looked safe because all the debt was backed up by actual physical homes.

Step 4: Nobody banked on home prices to go down. When they went down, the percieved risk of mortgage pools went up because they suddenly appeared much more risky.

Step 5: In the middle of the mortgage/liquidity crisis, nobody is up for buying mortgage pools no matter how safe.

Step 6: Trading firms are supposed to "mark their positions to market" - which means that to value their assets, they need to estimate how much these assets can be sold for in the open market.

Step 7: Since liquidity for mtge pools has dried up, the pools are valued very low in the market. Therefore, entities like Lehman have no choice to value their super-senior trances as being very cheap.

Step 8: The above means (1) tremendous paper losses and (2) much weaker debt to asset ratio.

Step 9: Since these companies have crappy balance sheets, they are rated lower by the ratings agencies.

Step 10: Dealers like Lehman must have top credit rating in order to (1) be eligible as counterparties to certain deals and (2) borrow money on competitive basis.

A few conlusions:

First, the thing that triggered the disaster is the drop in home prices and subsequent PERCIEVED decrease in the safety of the pools.

Second, what happened to Lehman et al is mainly to the lack of liquidity in the assets rather than in the actual risk of the assets.

Combining the two above, it seems likely that the pools are now rather undervalued. The government and the "rescuing" banks like JPM may actually end up making money in the long run on these holdings. It seems very unlikely to me that the supersenior trances will actually suffer so many defaults. It seems obvious that the pools are cheap now due to liquidity risk not credit risk.

A question:

Here's something I really don't get at all. I keep hearing that Lehman collapsed partially because the short sellers were after them, and that ML was concerned that they would be targeted next. I don't get how short-sellers can force a company into bankrupcy? If the stock gets hammered low, why does that affect the functioning of the firm? Other than the possibility that the firms hold quite a lot of their own stock as assets (?), I don't get the connection. Can someone explain?

36

^ 34

Re: Breaking the bank

jwb.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 11:04:38 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

It's bullshit.  You call out the short sellers because you need a villain to fulfill your stabbed-in-the-back narrative.  The truth is that the short side plays an essential role in the market.  Obviously, they provide downward pressure on overvalued shares.  They also take the edge off when share prices crash, because when the shares are falling the shorts don't double down, they cover (i.e. buy), which props up the share price.  And finally the short side provides an essential price-finding function by selling shares when everyone else is buying, and buying when everyone else is selling.

And, as you note, the share price has fuck-all to do with the solvency of the balance sheet.

57

^ 36

Of course it's orchestrated

thefadd.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 02:23:12 AM EST

none

...all you have to do is look at the voodoo economics Newt Gingrich is proposing to "fix" the "problem" and how much Bill and Hillary are in support thereof if you watched their recent interviews. Pretty disgusting...

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

40

^ 34

Re: Breaking the bank

wetkarma.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 04:14:54 AM EST

5.00 (informative, astute)


Here's something I really don't get at all. I keep hearing that Lehman collapsed partially because the short sellers were after them, and that ML was concerned that they would be targeted next. I don't get how short-sellers can force a company into bankrupcy?

One of the steps you missed was the issue of credit-default swaps. Around step 4 is where things are slightly different. Banks DID factor the risk that housing prices would go down or rather that people would default on their loans if housing went down and they couldn't sell. What the banks did was buy 'insurance' through the acquisition of credit default swaps. What noone factored (see your other steps, was that the insuring agent (eg. Lehman) would go bankrupt.

When Lehman went bust, that had its own ripple effect since the banks still had a need for insurance against the risk of default -- which was now perceived even higher and therefore noone was willing to underwrite. Without the insurance, the banks had to immediately come up with greater funds to fix the liabilities on their balance sheet.

Which gets me around to how shorting affects things. When you short you are sometimes (naked shorting) creating shares in the marketplace which don't actually exist. This not only creates selling pressure on the security (drives down the stock price), but it prevents the company from raising cash to fix their balance sheet through equity sales.

Think of it this way -- I own a brand new ferrari which is parked in the garage of my fabulous Miami mansion. Unfortunately my wife is suing me in a nasty divorce battle and its highly likely that the ferrari and the house will have to be sold in order to give her settlement money. Since its a limited edition ferrari and the house was custom made, I assume I can get a good price even though there aren't many comparable sales. Unfortunately just this morning on Ebay, someone put up a brand new ferrari and fabulous Miami mansion for sale, this was followed 10 minutes later by someone else selling a new ferrari and mansion for less than the first seller.....and so it goes.

The people on ebay are betting that by the time their auction closes, they will be able to buy my ferrari and house from foreclosure (since I'm unable to sell them I'm going to go bankrupt) and deliver it to whomever bought it on Ebay. Given that we're talking about stocks rather than physical goods, its a lot easier to postpone actual delivery of shares and thus someone can indirectly drive a company into bankruptcy by removing its access to capital from the market.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

56

^ 40

Re: Breaking the bank

eduardo.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 09:59:07 PM EST

none

<I>What the banks did was buy 'insurance' through the acquisition of credit default swaps. What noone factored (see your other steps, was that the insuring agent (eg. Lehman) would go bankrupt.</I>

Actually as far as I know that wasn't a big deal and wasn't a factor in Lehman's trouble.

While the dealers weren't very good at managing their mortgage books, they do know how to be dealers and as such they really weren't in the business of taking credit risk on their CDSs. They would shoot for offsetting transactions and making money on the spread. If any pools defaulted, Lehman would collect roughly as much as it would have to pay out.

The day after Lehman announced bankrupcy, there was an overnight netting session where all the counterparties to Lehman deals settled among themselves. As far as I know, things netted out fine and there was no disruption to the CDS market.

65

^ 56

Re: Breaking the bank

Shy Elf.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 10:35:24 PM EST

none

As far as I know, things netted out fine and there was no disruption to the CDS market.
That's because the big player in these wasn't Lehman, but AIG.

Re: 40: Edwardo was talking about this from the point of view of the mortgage packagers like Lehman and you're talking about it from the point of view of the banks.

37

^ 34

Re: Breaking the Bank

Shy Elf.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 12:55:23 AM EST

4.00 (astute)

Step 2:  The problem for the companies like Lehman is mostly the ones that they were in the process of packaging.  Packaging them took months, and their inventories got fatter when they stopped selling them and kept buying more for a while before they realized they'd never sell.
Steps 3-4:  Selling houses after the default takes a long time which aren't paid for, costs a lot of legal expenses, and you get them back damaged.  But, what the hey, they go up in value during the whole process so you don't lose too much if you have to foreclose.  Oops, they went down instead.
Step 5: This one has me rather puzzled.  These were rather closed markets, and most of the buyers needed AAA rated securities, and were substituting the better tranches of securitized mortgages plus a default credit swap, which they can't do anymore, but I'm still surprised that there isn't more liquidity, even if they're marked down.  It appears that either the buyers are irrationally scared, or the owners are irrationally refusing to sell, or the transaction costs to acquire the necessary information for a fair trade are huge.
Step 6: Except if the market is illiquid, there aren't trades to force them to mark them down to anything near what they can sell them for.
Step 9:  They had crappy balance sheets to start with in the good times.  They were leveraged to the hilt.

Re Your conclusions 1-2: With the leverage they had, it doesn't take much an increase in risk to put them over the edge, and it sure looks like we've had a real decrease in safety.  But, yes, it's hard to rule out that it may have been the perception of a nonexistent risk which may have pushed them over the edge.

Your final conclusion: That would depend on whether in this regulatory climate, their ability to skirt the law during step 6 is greater than the information costs and irrational fear of step 7.  With housing prices still falling and most of the mortgages not yet having hit the end of the teaser rate, my guess is that in general they are still overvalued as far as book value goes, but that good opportunities to make a profit buying them exist.

Note that if they have a reliable banking partner, they can continue their normal investment banking activities, and get an income from this even with little in the way of net capital.

Re: Question:  If their stock looks like it's heading to near zero soon, that means that the equity markets have decided that they are likely to default and be liquidated.  It makes everybody who depends on their credit rating very nervous and makes them re-evaluate their ability to pay, and starts driving away business and raising their borrowing costs. (and it makes no difference how much of their own stock they hold as assets, of course)

1

Re: Breaking the bank (mild profanity)

pO157.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 at 07:32:16 AM EST

none

I was going to write this as a main page story, but then I realized if I did it would either:

-Become so slanted that I couldn't in good conscience post it.
-Need to take a Xanax or something because I'd become so enraged that the second half of the body would mostly include profanities and references to how some of us fucking saved our goddamn cash and put downpayments on starter homes we could afford while working to protect our fucking credit rating and are now living in the hood where fucking jackasses wake us up at 6 in the motherfucking morning screaming "HEY! YOU BETTER COME BACK HERE! I'M GONNA COME FUCK YOU UP! GET YOUR ASS BACK HERE!" and I realize that my threshold for what deserves a call to 911 has gone up significantly since I moved in, then I got in one little fight and my mom got scared so now I'm moving in with my uncle in bell-air. Or something.

(deep breath)

And now free cheesers are getting whatever the fuck they want all because they were complete irresponsible fucks and bought that expensive home in the suburbs on horribly risky terms and now have no qualms holding the country hostage for a handout. And I'm sleeping with a Mossberg and a box of 00 buck in my bedroom in case of an 'incident' in my own home.

Fuck.
That.
Noise.

And in a previous diary posting I (and other members of organized third parties) were generally derided for "not being willing to compromise." How, prey tell, exactly should us horrible intransigent outliers compromise on this issue?

3

^ 1

Plenty of blame

Lou.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 at 10:06:07 AM EST

none

I hear you brother, I hate getting woken up my some neighborhood cretin.  My neighbor is "training" his dog to not whine.  He ties the dog up in the yard and goes for coffee...of the puppy whines when his pack leader leaves and here's where the training comes in: He stands near the street shouting "NO".  Lovely thing on a Sunday morning.

But I digress...

While much scorn can be dropped on the heads of folks who took out untenable loans there are deeper roots to this problem.  Please forgive me my lack of precise economic terms while I explain what I think I understand.

 It seems that there were several countries that are developing quickly and had a surplus of cash (I'm looking at you, China).  Rather than stuffing this wealth into the mattress, these countries are looking for a place to invest it.  At roughly the same time, the US housing market was enjoying robust and healthy growth.  Seeing an opportunity lenders/money people would take mortgages and bundle them together into a package.  These packages offered a very attractive return so they became quite popular.  These initial packages were mostly filled with good mortgages (3-5% default level).  We'll call these Level 1 packages.  Before too long these good risk mortgages dried up. Those folks with solid credit who wanted mortgages already had them.  Then the lenders started looking at those people with less solid credit.  Not bad, but not shining either...but solid enough to make attractive packages. We'll call these Level 2 Packages.  Money was lent, packages were made but still the investors had an enormous appetite (I like this word in this context) for more investments.  You see where this is going.  In a classic case of supply and demand we soon work our way down to NINA loans.  NO Income-NO Assets.  Risky in the extreme...I believe I read somewhere that these have a default level of 60-70%!  

So who is to blame?

The borrowers? Of course. Only an idiot would sign on to an untenable loan/balloon mortgage.  But we have to be careful here.  "Own Your Own Home" is an intoxicating idea...plus, the folks giving me the mortgage are the "experts" right?  They made a great case about how my home would only go up in value and that I would easily be able to re-fi the home before the balloon came due.

The Investors?  Again, of course.  You'd think that the financial advisers would realize that the US housing market was overheated and would soon burst.  But the "experts" making these packages surely had their finger on the pulse of the American economy, right?  Besides, we're getting such an intoxicating return on our investments that it would be a shame to not take advantage of these investments.

The lenders?  A funny thing happened on the way to the conclusion of my little screed.  At first I started out thinking how the blame would be 33-33-33 among the players.  Now I'm starting to think that it's more like 60-20-20 with the lenders being squarely in the 60% column.  As the appetite for the mortgage packages grew, the more corners were cut.  I heard an interview on the radio of a mortgage fellow who had been in the business for decades decided to bail and become a teacher or something because he was shocked at how slipshod the industry had become.  He couldn't in good conscience work in the field anymore what with NINA sitting its fat ass on the whole thing.  Pity more couldn't have this guy's ethical and moral fiber.

Where does this leave us?  Well, you're fucked 'cuz you played by the rules to buy your home in your Dystopian Hellhole.  I'm fucked 'cuz people aren't buying homes and thus not buying insurance. (it's been really slow lately)  Those who are buying insurance are looking to save a buck and generally have shitty credit.  It's hard to find competitive rates for these folks.  The country is fucked for reasons astutely put forth by Wetkarma.  On the surface it seems like the irresponsible fucks in your neighborhood are holding us hostage and in some cases, I think you're right.  But the folks who bought all of these mortgage securities are the ones holding us hostage for our our irresponsibility.  (I'd go more into that, but my girlfriend is here and, well, you know)

That's about as far as my understanding goes.  I'm just glad my landlord is solid.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

31

^ 3

Re: Plenty of blame

Shy Elf.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 06:58:57 PM EST

5.00 (informative, interesting)

"The lenders" really needs to be split into the loan originators, Freddie/Fannie who set the standards and insured the prime conforming loans, the loan packagers (and especially the sub-prime loan packagers) who were mostly the investment banks, the packaged loan insurers (mostly AIG from what I've read, though I haven't seen any articles which even try to put numbers to this, so this could be way off), and the packaged loan buyers, which seem to include nearly every major financial industry player.

The question I've been trying to work out is, where were the regulators?

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac at least were government entities, and had their own regulator.  The Safety and Soundness Act of 1992, appears to have pulled the teeth from regulation and allowed Fannie and Freddie to start ignoring capital requirements.  It wasn't until much later that the new regulatory agency, the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight began to develop some teeth.

And it was in 2003 with OFHEO finally breathing down the necks of Fannie and Freddie that the White House finally decided that Fannie and Freddie needed to be moved to a separate government agency under the direct control of the Treasury department.

To some Democrats, this looked like an effort to bury the problem.  After all, with OFHEO finally doing a good job of investigating Fannie and Freddie, why not just give OFHEO teeth instead of hushing them up and moving the investigation to an entirely new agency, which might be more vulnerable to Fannie and Freddie's lobbying?  This view was reinforced by the support of the plan by Fannie's CEO.  To some, it looked like a continuation of the then ongoing Republican attacks on HUD, which was also to be included in the move.  Some just didn't yet see the need to do anything.  In any case, without a vote, the measure failed to make it out of the Republican-majority committee.

OFHEO continued to investigate, and their reports were damning.  Fannie set huge payouts for its senior officers if they could meet earnings per share targets.  The management which was to receive these payouts was allowed to set these targets, and they did everything they could to meet them.  With capital reserve requirements still not in place, they could expand aggressively in order to try to meet them.  When this was not enough, they shifted earnings between years in order to just barely meet the targets for each year.  The accounting and auditing departments received these bonuses too, and became active participants in the deception.  The head of the auditing department would cheer his underlings to meet the EPS goal.

By now every one of you must have 6.46 branded in your brains. You must be
able to say it in your sleep, you must be able to recite it forwards and backwards,
you must have a raging fire in your belly that burns away all doubts, you must
live, breath and dream 6.46, you must be obsessed on 6.46. . . After all, thanks to
Frank, we all have a lot of money riding on it. . . .We must do this with a fiery
determination, not on some days, not on most days but day in and day out, give it
your best, not 50%, not 75%, not 100%, but 150%. Remember, Frank has given
us an opportunity to earn not just our salaries, benefits, raises, ESPP, but
substantially over and above if we make 6.46. So it is our moral obligation to
give well above our 100% and if we do this, we would have made tangible
contributions to Frank’s goals.

The Fannie Mae chairman presented the extraordinarily stable earnings of his company to Wall Street as proof of the safety of his company, and used their stability to expand the company further.

There was now more will to do something about Fannie and Freddie, but still not enough.  John McCain co-sponsored a bill which would place them along with HUD in an independent agency with a chairman who the President could remove "for cause".  This again died in the Republican-majority Senate.  A Republican-sponsored bill in the house called for a truly independent agency, and passed with bi-partisan support, but again died in Republican-majority committee in the Senate.  The reform movement was stalled.

The Fannie Mae chairman went on to become one of Obama's horde of advisers.

Meanwhile John McCain's close friend future presidential-campaign co-chair Phill Gramm allowed Enron to draft much of a bill called the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, which was sponsored by 4 Republicans and 1 Democrat in the House and 4 Republicans and 2 Democrats in the Senate.  McCain certainly favored deregulation of this type, and talked incessantly about the need for deregulation, but I haven't looked for specific comments on this bill, since I expected them to be difficult to find.  It was introduced into appropriation bills without debate, like a typical pork earmark.

The effect of the bill was to nearly entirely exempt from all regulation energy market options and derivatives and default credit swaps.  Two years after this, the use of energy options and derivatives to hide losses would result in the bankruptcies of Enron and MCI and more otherwise healthy companies.  Recently, the unregulated issuance of default credit swaps by AIG has resulted in the FED taking it over, leaving it by far the most dangerous company to the world's financial stability.

Not to be outdone, the SEC voted to drastically reduce the amount of net capital they required for just 5 firms, the large Wall Street investment banks, all of which increased their leverage, and all of which are in deep trouble and have generated large financial jitters due to co-party risk.

The SEC let these respected firms cash in their reputations for money, by playing a heads-I-win, tails-you-lose, extreme leverage casino bet on low-quality mortgages.

Fortunately, we have seen relatively little in the way of bank closures.  But, is that really fortunate, or are they just not looking for bank problems?  Let's see what our chief bank regulator, John M. Reich, Director of the Office of Thrift Supervision, had to say about our recent financial troubles, as recently as July 21:

The third key to restoring confidence - avoiding interference - is important because, even if our industry sticks to stringent risk management principles, and all mortgage
originators are made to abide by the same rules, confidence in the industry can still be
derailed by interference. When I say interference, I mean interference with the regulatory
process by reporting and disseminating speculation about the condition of financial
institutions, thereby undermining public confidence in those institutions and causing
serious harm.

....

In a time when consumer confidence is already flagging and the general public is skittish
and understandably concerned about what their financial futures will hold, this behavior
goes beyond irresponsible. It’s reprehensible.

I am an ardent believer in free speech and the First Amendment, but I also know our
Supreme Court has ruled that free speech has its limits. You cannot scream “fire!” in a
crowded theater. Nor, in my view, should anyone feel free to scream “failure!” in a bank
lobby. This, in effect, is what happened across America just last week and it was
shameful.

...

In this age of instant telecommunications when information moves at the speed of light,
rumors are particularly potent. They can move markets and destroy institutions.
Particularly in a bear market, this is true. SEC Chairman Chris Cox seemed to recognize
the problem in a letter to the Basel Committee. After Bear Stearns was sold to
JPMorgan, he talked about rumors that had been spread about liquidity problems and said
that Bear’s undoing “was the result of a lack of confidence, not a lack of capital.”
Personally, I believe that the SEC should aggressively pursue rumors that fraudulently
manipulate markets.

In other words, don't worry.  There's no problem at all.  All we need to do is lock up anyone who says differently, and the problem will disappear.

Well, are you reassured?

32

^ 31

Re: Plenty of blame

Lou.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 08:36:54 PM EST

none

Well, are you reassured?

I gave up on reassurance back in 1968.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

33

^ 32

Re: Plenty of blame

thefadd.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 08:52:07 PM EST

4.00 (funny)

Mutually reassured destruction?

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

41

^ 33

Re: Plenty of blame

Lou.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:06:38 AM EST

none

Mutually reassured destruction?

Death of father.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

63

^ 33

Re: Plenty of blame

Shy Elf.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 10:06:04 PM EST

none

Mutuals' reassured destruction, perhaps?

44

^ 3

Re: Plenty of blame

pO157.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 12:46:35 PM EST

none

I agree that the blame can be split. But just because it can be does not mean that the net result should be a massive bailout.

Who put the gun to the head of the people who took out mortgages in the Level 3 Category? What lenders were forced to approve them? Why didn't they choose the path of your friend and decide to exit the industry rather than be complicit in those shenanigans? Finally, the argument that companies should be let off the hook because they bought the mortgages in packages does not fly with me.

What ever happened to due diligence? If a group of investors was going to sink millions into a stack of mortgage notes, wouldn't it make sense to first check to make sure that the paper was solid?

In conclusion, I agree with your assessment that everything is fucked. The least I can hope for in the interim is that my (already high) taxes will not increase because I am forced to pay for the stupidity of others.

Off topic, how much money could a guy shopping around for home insurance save nowadays? I've noticed my rates have gone up 10-15% since I bought the place a few years ago. I assume most places figure mortgage escrows will pay without question and that people won't want to deal with the aggravation of switching to save like $50.

64

^ 44

Re: Plenty of blame

Shy Elf.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 10:14:01 PM EST

none

The 10-15% has to do with more hurricane damage lately as well as increasing payouts for things like full roof replacements for hailstorms.  Both the cost differential and service differential between the more and less reputable insurance companies has been increasing lately.

If you don't have a home replacement cost guarantee, and the value of your home is way down, you should be able to save a lot on insurance without any additional risk by reducing the covered home value, which should now be way too high, but your current company should be able to do that if you talk to them.  

72

^ 64

Careful there

Lou.

Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 08:52:57 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

If you don't have a home replacement cost guarantee, and the value of your home is way down, you should be able to save a lot on insurance without any additional risk by reducing the covered home value, which should now be way too high, but your current company should be able to do that if you talk to them.  

Just a heads-up...  When we insure a home we only insure the structure and not the land.  However, when a home is on the market, both are considered.  One of the first things we do when quoting a policy is run a Replacement Cost Estimate.  This calculates how much it would cost to rebuild the home (assuming a total loss) on a like kind/like quality basis.  I have seen an increasing number of estimates coming back at a higher level than the selling price of the home.  Why?  While home prices have dropped, the costs of rebuilding a home (sinks, toilets, 2x4s, labor, etc) have stayed the same or gone up.  Since a 2x4 that cost $3 last year might cost $4 this year (I have no idea how much wood costs, btw), if you reduce your covered amount on your policy and you have a total loss you could come up short when it comes time to rebuild.  My strong suggestion is at the very least, don't screw around with the dwelling replacement cost on your policy.  

I have some suggestions if you would like to save money:

  1. Review your deductible.  I'm looking at an estimate right now that shows a drop in price from $649 to $532 if this customer increases the deductible from $500 to $1000.  And if this person were able to handle it, she could reduce the premium to $343 year if she has a deductible of $2500.

  2. Ordinance or Law Coverage.  This is coverage that pays for any increase in the dwelling replacement cost should your town change its building codes. If your home was built before say 1950, keep it.  However, if your home is relatively new or has been refurbished within the last 20 years, it's already up to code.  Unless there are changes coming down from the town you can drop this coverage without too much trouble.

  3. Insure your cars and home with the same company.  Most give a nice discount on the home insurance if you include the cars.  Be careful though...if the company doesn't have competitive auto rates you might not save anything.

  4. Ask your agent if the company you're with uses credit scores.  If so, and if you have had some credit bumps, you may see an increase in premium.  There aren't many companies out there that don't credit score any more...but ask your agent.  If you live in the New England region message me and I'll inform you of a great company that serves New England and doesn't credit score.  I just saved a family (and this is rock hard true) $3k per year by moving them to a company that doesn't credit score.

Of course, this information is given only on an informal basis and is not intended to replace information you may receive from a local agent.  YMMV.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

73

^ 72

Re: Careful there

Shy Elf.

Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 09:17:21 AM EST

none

Well, the point being that in pO157's neighborhood, if you have a total loss you don't rebuild so much as go buy a neighbor's house.  It's a lot cheaper.

19

9.8 Meters per second squared

Lou.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 11:07:47 AM EST

none

So, when will we see stock brokers jumping out of their office windows?  That's my favorite part when an economy craters.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

27

^ 19

That Won't Happen Because Of Stockbrokering Logic.

MayorBob.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 12:03:26 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

He is still the broker but you are now the brokee.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

28

^ 19

Re: 9.8 Meters per second squared

Shy Elf.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 at 01:27:28 PM EST

5.00 (astute, astute)

Sorry, Lou, but that was before golden parachutes.

38

something to keep in mind

JimmyHavok.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 01:18:42 AM EST

none

The bad mortgages that led to this problem are Adjustable Rate Mortgages.  If the interest rates are high when the adjustment period comes up, there is a lot higher chance of a default, especially if the borrower is underwater, and most of those ARMs were made when interest rates were very low.

So there are a lot more shoes to drop.