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Featured Diary: Retroactive prayer can heal!

shane.

Posted to SciTech on Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 06:10:56 PM EST (promoted from Diaries by port1080). RSS.

A randomized, double blind study, complete with a control group may have demonstrated that retroactive prayer can help decrease the length of your hospital stay.  In the study prayer was offered 4-10 years after the actual hospital stay occurred!  

The study, performed with a humorous intention raises some serious questions that we have been struggling with around here.  A follow up article in a 2003 issue of BMJ asks some serious questions; "Would you believe a study that looks methodologically correct but tests something that is completely out of people's frame (or model) of the physical world?"  Should studies be dismissed just because they violate common sense or your view of the world?  How much is scientific progress being held back while we wait for people to bust through our paradigms?

Remember many strongly held beliefs have been proven wrong over time - "The world is flat," "Heavier than air flying machines are impossible," "The telephone has too many serious shortcomings to be useful," ""I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."

What will it take to bust you out of your preconceived and possibly wrong notions of how the world works?  Will you be on the leading edge of science, breaking new ground while all the while being laughed at, or will you be a follower, only accepting new ideas after those around you are all convinced?

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3

Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 07:58:19 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

The next obvious step would be a study of retroactive intercessory prayer for patients who died. Resurrecting the dead would certainly convince me.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

Lou.

Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 08:07:38 PM EST

none

No...you miss the point.  The prayers should make it so that the deceased never got sick in the first place.  Time manipulation being what it is, the observer and subject would never know they were ever sick.  The subject would appear to be hale and hearty and not cancer ridden at all.  It's a miracle!

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

shane.

Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 08:17:15 PM EST

none

Do you seriously want to talk about resurrection on easter?

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 08:23:06 PM EST

none

Not seriously, no.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

shane.

Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 10:04:14 PM EST

none

If I went to all the trouble of resurrecting the dead you wouldn't believe me anyway, so I don't think that will bust you out of your preconceived notions.  

But seriously, what would?  Would you have to do the experiment yourself or know the person who did it? I expect that if it was a currently highly respected, by you, scientist who did such a thing you would assume the scientist went crazy.  What would it take for you to believe, zyx?

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Retroactive prayer cannot heal.

skeptic.

Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 03:44:30 PM EST

none

I consider myself to be as skeptical as zyxwvutsr, although not as confrontational.  It is true that even if you were to resurrect the dead through the miraculous power of prayer, I would not necessarily be convinced of the mystical nature of reality thereby revealed, for two reasons:

  1.  It is already possible to bring the clinically dead back to life by means of medical intervention such as cardio-pulmonary resuscitation, so reviving the dead in itself does not necessarily prove anything of a mystical nature, and
  2.  If you present me with a person who is now visibly alive and whom you claim to have been previously dead, the latter part of your claim could be hard to confirm.  This supposedly resurrected individual may be lying about who he or she is.

However, there are ways of getting around these problems.  For example, resurrect Albert Einstein.  Since he has been dead for decades (and even dissected) he is obviously well beyond any possible medical intervention, and he could effectively prove his identity by discussing theoretical physics on a level that perhaps only a dozen people in the world could reach (and we know who they are, and they are not going to pass themselves off as the resurrected Albert Einstein).  I'm sure that there are other people than Einstein who would also be very convincing if resurrected.  So choose the right subject.

The problem with any experiments showing the magical power of prayer is that there have been lots of experiments in the past, supposedly confirming the magical power of prayer, which upon closer examination have all proved to be invalid, due to procedural error or outright falsification of results.  So now we have another one, and I'm sure that it too is fake.  People WANT to believe in magic, and will go to great lengths to do so, but the entire history of science is one of relentlessly disproving all such beliefs.  I don't think that this pattern is going to suddenly be reversed now.

Nonetheless, science and scientists will always respect genuine, honest observation and reasoning.  If you are ever able to clearly demonstrate the reality of some mystical process, such as healing by prayer, then science will have to adjust its concept of reality accordingly.  And if pigs can fly, we will have to raise them indoors so they don't escape.  Anything may be possible, but some things are very unlikely.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

joshv.

Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 09:55:04 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Wait until the Voodoo doctors get wind of this study.  They've been wasting all this time attacking people in the present with complex and difficult to conjure maladies, when all they have to do is give the target's mother a simple headache on the day of the target's conception.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can choose!

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 11:08:37 PM EST

none

...all they have to do is give the target's mother a simple headache on the day of the target's conception
It would be temporally easier to intervene in the several months following and convince the lady to exercise her "right to choose."

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Re: Retroactive prayer can choose!

Lou.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 01:16:33 AM EST

none

Troll

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

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Re: Retroactive prayer can choose!

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 10:38:55 AM EST

none

Boor.

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confusing cause and effect

wetkarma.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 10:07:12 PM EST

5.00 (correct, probable, correlated)

If you read the story again, it seems what is being 'proven here' is that people with shorter hospital stays eventually have people pray for them. Its not at all clear to me that the prayer is retroactively affecting the hospital stay vs. the other choice of the hospital stay affecting the prayer.

i.e. Bob goes into the hospital on May, 2000 and becomes part of a data set of hospital stays.

Come 2003, Jane needs a dataset of hospital stays and Bob becomes part of the sample.

At minimum the experiment needs to be done again with the following controls:
1. Pray for the person to not get well.

If you get the same level of correlation, then we're on to something. Until then, I'll chalk this up to randomized correlation.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

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editor help

shane.

Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 06:13:19 PM EST

none

If those goes FP please replace in p1 'hospital study' with 'hospital stay'. Thanks.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

shane.

Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 06:24:16 PM EST

none

The second link in the story is really the meat of this article.  If you only read one tnt link this would be the one.  There are great gems in it like this one:


Schmidt did foundational work about retroactive intentions with electronic generators of random numbers and with inherently random processes such as radioactive decay.6 Human intent influenced prerecorded events at the quantum level in the present if the recording of the quantum events had not yet been seen, even though the events were in the past and had happened.w22 Schmidt's experiments, widely regarded among the most precise ever in human intentionality, evoke praise, even from sceptics.w23

I hope all you skeptics around here can join in the praise!

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

Chronon.

Thu Apr 16, 2009 at 07:52:28 PM EST

none

They certainly do opine about physics for being a medical site.  For some reason they proclaim nonlocality even though this depends on your interpretation of quantum mechanics and is not an inherent feature of the theory.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

DEMachina.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 12:37:41 AM EST

none

All I can really say to this is "huh."  That is to say, it's certainly possible, and I'll go so far as to say I wouldn't be surprised.

I've never really understood the aversion science and religion have to one another.  The more I read and understand (only at a very basic level, of course) about quantum mechanics and the like the more it seems to jive with what religions have been telling us for the last couple thousand years, at least at a general level (I don't have much use for specific dogma).  Both science and religion are a search for truth about the nature of the universe.

I think our society in this day and age really underestimates and undervalues human intuition.  We train ourselves out of listening to our gut about things, and I think this is to our detriment.  Like anything else human, it's not always accurate, of course, so it's hard to know where to draw the line.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

joshv.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 09:38:21 AM EST

none

"I think our society in this day and age really underestimates and undervalues human intuition.  We train ourselves out of listening to our gut about things, and I think this is to our detriment.  Like anything else human, it's not always accurate, of course, so it's hard to know where to draw the line."

We are, at a very fundamental level, pattern recognition machines  - this is the source of our "gut".  This is greatly to our evolutionary advantage.  Recognizing patterns in peer social behavior, prey movement, weather, climate, etc... can greatly increase your chances of survival - so much so that your pattern recognition machinery is highly tuned towards false positives - recognizing patterns that simply aren't there.  For example "the day I didn't wash in the stream before the hunt, I killed a massive buck, maybe next time I go hunting I will skip the wash".  Much of our intuition is much more subtle than this, based on a life's experience, some of it consciously forgotten, but it's rooted in the same survival machinery.

But the cost of recognizing patterns that aren't there is very small compared to the cost of not recognizing patterns that are there.   Who cares if your tribe has identified a dozen evil places in the jungle (which aren't really actually dangerous or harmful) if the 13th is the home of a deadly snake.  The superstitious aversion to the false positives costs little compared to the benefit of avoiding the snake's lair.

The scientific method attempts to create a process which weeds out spurious pattern recognition and find real correlations - thus the almost total elimination of the human "gut" in the process.  It's not perfect, but it's the best we've got.

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science starts with the gut

shane.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 12:42:11 PM EST

none

Josh I agree with you all the way up to the last paragraph.  Science doesn't eliminate the gut it simply verifies it.  If it wasn't for the intuition of the scientists many discoveries wouldn't have happened.  There is, unfortunately, no scientific method to determine what to study further.  

Which of the 13 scary jungle areas of your tribe do we decide to investigate further?  Which one do we investigate first?  Maybe if there was just one tribe we could investigate them all but there are thousands of tribes and probably thousands of scary jungle areas to investigate.  Without the intuition of scientists about where to look and what to look for there would be no science.

Ignore your intuition at your own peril - not every situation you find yourself in will have a scientific research project around it.  Science can hone your intuition but not replace it.

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Re: science starts with the gut

joshv.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 01:05:52 PM EST

none

Sure, our pattern recognition machinery is wonderful at picking hypotheses that are more likely to be correct - and we have very little idea how that process works.  What was going on in Einstein's mind what he dreamed up General Relativity?  Who knows.

But when it came time to verify his work, the verification process itself could not be subject to "the gut", intuition or instinct.  This process must be as objective and as free from human bias as we can make it.  This is what I meant when I said the scientific method strives to remove the gut from the equation.  I was probably not specific enough.

The ultimate arbiter of hypothesis is reality.  There either is, or isn't a snake in that part of the jungle.  It might be wise to avoid all of the "evil" spots, just in case, but that doesn't mean that all of them are in fact dangerous.

Similarly with more positive observations based on spurious correlations -  such as folk medicine.  Certainly not all folk medicines and practices are effective, but based on long experience few appear to be actually harmful, so it probably can't hurt to try them - especially if you believe they will work (placebo).  And if that's all your arguments about alternative medicine amount to - that's well and good.  Let's please just confine ourself to the realm of placebo effect and possibly real (and yet unverified) benefit.  Just because it works for you doesn't mean it will work for someone else, and neither does it speak to the efficacy of standard medical treatments for the same ailments.

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Re: science starts with the gut

shane.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 04:09:00 PM EST

none

The scientific method amounts to either: noticing that something happens and checking to see if it happens every time or theorizing that something should happen then checking to see if it happens every time.

As any reasonably perceptive person goes through their life they will notice that sometimes x happens around when y happens.  If you attempt to verify that it happens regularly and predictably you are a scientist and basing your beliefs in science - even if there is no supporting papers

It is true there is some room for personal bias to cloud the equation - and that is also true for the scientist in the lab.  A published peer reviewed paper is a nice check to remove some of the bias but that doesn't mean the layperson should deny their own scientific abilities.

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Re: science starts with the gut

joshv.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 04:36:05 PM EST

none

"As any reasonably perceptive person goes through their life they will notice that sometimes x happens around when y happens.  If you attempt to verify that it happens regularly and predictably you are a scientist and basing your beliefs in science - even if there is no supporting papers"

No, not really.  Observing your own personal experience is highly subject to personal biases, and perhaps more importantly, further subject to interpretting random outcomes as significant - you will have a very difficult time producing significant results from a sample size of one.  Even if something happens to you five times in a row, the probability that this represents a random outcome is still quite high.

We, as individuals, also tend to forget negative results.  How many times did we take zinc and still get our spouse's cold?

So, unless you are extremely rigorous in recording your observations, you really aren't conducting science in any meaningful sense.  And even if you are, you probably will never be able to collect enough observations to be able to claim that your results aren't due to chance.

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sample size of one

shane.

Tue Apr 14, 2009 at 11:08:22 AM EST

5.00 (anecdotal)

Here is a great example of where personal observation and testing can lead the scientists.  I have other examples as well, although I think one will do.

Shanaya is asthmatic.  When I met her 15 years ago she was having asthma attacks daily or even multiple times per day.  She has had asthma since she was two.  Asthma kind of freaks me out because when you treat it with the pharmaceutical it actually causes long term damage to your breathing tube.  It also sucks to hear your wife wheezing, or worse yet to not hear it but know that she is having an attack but trying to hide it so as to seem normal.  The goal of this life experiment would be to figure out what is causing the asthma and eliminate it.  Now she has an asthma attack less than 12 times per year.

I am an observer.  I observe more than I talk, I learn through observing and so I just naturally started to notice asthma being caused by certain smells.  Diesel exhaust was one of them - every time we were driving behind a diesel truck with that strong diesel smell she would start wheezing.  After a while I realized I could switch the air intake to recycle and roll up the windows to avoid this trigger.  

Next we started noticing second hand smoke was a big trigger - anytime someone walking in front of us was smoking asthma would be right there with us.  This is much harder to avoid but was good to know and be aware of.  In close quarters this is even a trigger if the smell lingers on the clothing of smokers or is on their furniture.

We were under the belief that that cat and dog dander were major triggers.  We noticed though that when we were around cats a lot she didn't actually get asthma.  So maybe it is a trigger but a mild one.  We even lived in a house with a cat for a month with no major attacks.

I think I heard on the radio once that lavender was a trigger so I asked her to smell some once.  Yikes, instant reaction and a bad one.  This is confirmed repeatedly because lavender is everyone.  It's in dish soap, laundry soap, perfume, air fresheners.  One time a friend left some unmarked lavender laundry soap in our house and I used it twice to was diapers.  Shanaya was allergic to the whole house for a week.  I re-washed everything twice and got the carpets out of the house and she was fine again.  

Here we are today and Shanaya just had a mild attack.  She has been having sensitive lungs for a couple of weeks and we need to figure out what the trigger might be.  Some thing have changed recently and there are some new expected triggers around. It's spring, she has had a cold recently, there are cows  in the back yard, I was playing with the outdoor dog today and we currently have guests staying with us that live with a smoker.  It could be any one of those things, a combination of them, or something completely different.  My job is now to figure out which it is.

The process for determining if something is a mild trigger goes something like this: remove the suspected object for a while and see if the asthma goes away.  If it does we re-introduce the object and watch for problems.  We can do this a few times to verify that it is that object and not some other random thing.  If we remove an object and there is still a problem it doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't causing the problem!  There could be multiple triggers.  So we need to keep removing newly introduced items until the asthma is clear, then add them back in to see what it was.

If I had notes from years past I would know if spring was a trigger or not.  I suspect it might be but I have never really tested for it and due to the nature of spring is incredibly hard to test for with the method I use.  Notes would be great for this.  

The other items I've identified and eliminated didn't need notes, scientists, white coats or labs.  Applying some of the principles of the scientific process is all that was required to determine, with enough accuracy, what the triggers are and eliminate them.  The scientists I'm sure have listed all of the items I know about as possibly triggering asthma and that certainly helped this process along, especially with lavender, but they have also listed many things that are a trigger for some people but not for Shanaya.

How did the scientists get their list of asthma triggers?  I expect they asked a bunch of asthmatic people and their doctors what triggered their asthma.  It's a different trigger for everyone and in this case a sample size of one is perfectly appropriate and very effective.

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Re: science starts with the gut

shane.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 05:17:36 PM EST

none

Oh but I can claim that my results work for me and really when talking about what works for me that is pretty important!

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

DEMachina.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 03:31:10 PM EST

none

The scientific method attempts to create a process which weeds out spurious pattern recognition and find real correlations - thus the almost total elimination of the human "gut" in the process.  It's not perfect, but it's the best we've got.

I agree.

That said, I think unfortunately the fact that the scientific method is generally more reliable makes us unwilling to question it.  Sometimes this is good (e.g. creationism), but sometimes perhaps not.  For example, we "know" that c is the speed limit for the universe.  What if that's not true?  What if our "knowing" it's true prevents us from finding that out or doing anything with it?  A good historical example is heliocentrism ... before that, we "knew" the Earth was the center of the universe.  Another is the idea that objects of different weights will fall at different velocities (i.e. that acceleration due to gravity is proportional to mass).

Thankfully we have people who come along from time to time and challenge these basic assumptions (e.g. Galileo).  Of course, what distinguishes them from crazy people in our eyes is, for one, their assertions being proven true.  Now, certainly those who take an experimental, scientific approach should be distinguished from those who just believe things to believe them or whatever.

I would say that the scientific method has allowed more valuable discoveries than devotion to it has cost us (of course there's no way to know for sure), but I also think it would be beneficial if there were less devotion to conventional wisdom among the sciences.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

Chronon.

Thu Apr 16, 2009 at 08:30:15 PM EST

none

People who regard science as true appear to have missed the entire lesson of the history of science.  Science involves constructing models for understanding our perceptions.  We infer the existence of an external reality with properties that correspond to our perceptions.  When we talk to other people we find that certain observations can be agreed upon to a very high degree.  These have been called "elements of reality" by some philosophers of science.  We confer to these observations some degree of objectivity but it really just corresponds to consensus reality at play.  Just about everyone (barring solipsists and other eccentrics) takes the interpretation that there is some external reality out there that we all sense and call it nature.  We search for repeatable patterns in nature and seek explanations for those patterns.  Time and again people have made new observations that have defied explanation by our accustomed models.  I have no reason to believe that this process will ever end.

Science is practical.  It should prefer only those models that more efficiently and effectively account for patterns that we agree about.  A model should never be described as true.  Truth is an abstract ideal best left to philosophers.  It has no practical purpose.  A model should only be described as useful or not depending on the current conditions under which patterns are being observed.  We should consider Newtonian mechanics as "adequate" under a well specified set of conditions -- not false because it fails to explain observations of things that are small or fast or both.

Regarding the constancy of the speed of light as scientific gospel: There are fairly well accepted ideas in quantum field theory for a different speed of light in the early universe due to a high concentration of energy.  Virtual processes that lead to the observed speed of light (renormalization) would have been more prominent and the observed speed of light in those conditions would be different from what we observe now.  Whether or not this is true, it should be considered as a way to explain various observations.

I think that the level of familiarity that many people have with science leads them to think of science as containing more certainties than practicing scientists would suggest.  I remember having an impression when I was younger that scientists knew things.  No.  Scientists only find creative explanations for things.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

gerrymander.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 02:15:00 PM EST

none

I've never really understood the aversion science and religion have to one another.

It's not really an aversion between science and religion. It's an aversion small-minded people have to admitting the limitations of their perceived worldview. A religious person honest in the belief in an omniscient, omnipotent deity would have to admit that omniscience and omnipotence grants a lot of leeway toward constructing a self-consistent universe discoverable through science. A scientist honest in the practice of science would have to admit that unless there's a demonstrable, repeatable way to transcend the limitations imposed by the universe, some knowledge is simply beyond discovering.

A bit more humility would go a long way to smoothing the differences between the Michael Behes and Richard Dawkins of the world.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

DEMachina.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 03:38:14 PM EST

none

I agree completely, and the smallness as you put it is a source of frustration for me.  It's almost funny to me how neither side can see the impossibility of certainty where something like this is concerned.  

The "rational" side hasn't seemed to figure out the complete logical nonsense that is concluding that because something which is by its nature imperceptible to us right now isn't perceived, it doesn't exist.

By the same token, too few religious people, I think, understand that doubt is as much an element of faith as belief.  It's amazing (to say nothing of unfortunate) how to believe has become synonymous with to be certain.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

Chronon.

Thu Apr 16, 2009 at 09:21:58 PM EST

none

You seem to be misrepresenting the scientific viewpoint somewhat.  As I mentioned in a previous post in this discussion, science simply doesn't use metaphysical concepts in trying to explain observations in nature.  I simply don't find it useful or sensible to invoke a metaphysical cause for explaining patterns in a seemingly natural world without looking for natural explanations first.  Also, as an unfalsifiable proposition it simply doesn't fit into the scheme science uses for choosing between alternative models.  We never know when the proposition should be disregarded in favor of another one because we can't ever falsify it.  Falsification provides an engine for selecting new models in favor of old ones.  It generates movement toward the goal of describing reality.

An unfalsifiable proposition may either be true or false but we have no way to test it so there's no meaning to how close we are to truth.  It's binary.  There's no way to approach the truth since we're either already there or we're wrong.  There's no clear way to make progress.

However, I also want to point out that metaphysics and science can dovetail quite harmoniously.  We live our whole lives in a subjective, metaphysical world.  Color, taste and smell have visceral meaning to each of us but are not physical things.  Physically, we can only talk about the frequency of oscillation of light or the shape of a molecule.  Because of this I don't think that science gives an effective language for talking about what it means to be human.  I guess I'm saying that our very contact with the physical world is metaphysical.

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Re: Retroactive prayer can heal!

Chronon.

Thu Apr 16, 2009 at 08:41:15 PM EST

none

Science is more or less agnostic about metaphysics.  It contains language for describing observations about the natural world.  Words like God or soul simply do not have any specific meaning within science.  Science does not deny these things, it simply does not define them or use these words in its explanations.

I used to think that science was about truth.  Now I just think it's a way to explain patterns.  Religion makes truth its business, but usually just asserts a dogma.  This seems like a big difference to me.  I will admit that I find interesting analogies between some Buddhist teachings and certain interpretations of quantum mechanics (or Bayesian statistics), however.

Our brains process a lot of information.  Our conscious minds only have access to a filtered subset of that information.  I am not surprised at all that we sometimes feel an urge to act on non-rational impulses that can turn out to be correct.  

Finally, science leaps forward with intuition and ratchets slowly along with deduction.  Logic provides a slow, methodical way of pushing a model forward to its theoretical limits.  Jumps to new models do not follow logic.  Goedel called this the metamathematical step and it seems to involve intuition, not logic.  

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El hombre murciélago caca en su paradigma

Steve Urkel.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 06:40:09 PM EST

none

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Re: El hombre murciélago caca en su paradigma

gerrymander.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 08:01:10 PM EST

none

That poor little dog!

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