Legal

The Revolving Door Has a Fee

DEMachina.

Posted to Legal on Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 09:34:36 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

In a similar vein to the story of a costly hike submitted by our resident Mayor, an assemblyman in New York wants those who commit crimes to pay for them in more ways than one.

Assemblyman Jim Tedisco (R-upstate somewhere) has proposed a bill to charge people for their imprisonment.  His bill uses a sliding scale, where those with a net worth (excluding homes) greater than $200,000 would pay for all their expenses, with those worth $40,000 or less not paying anything.  Those in between would pay some percentage based on their worth.

Apparently his inspiration came from some high-profile, rich people to end up in jail over the last few years, such as Madoff, Martha Stewart, and Leona Helmsley.  His reasoning seems to be: these people have a ton of money, so why should the taxpayers have to pay to keep them in prison? He's not the first to suggest this method: a similar measure (without the sliding scale) was proposed in New Jersey earlier this year. Other states it seems already levy small fees (New Jersey, for example, charges $5/day for room and board and $10/day for trips to the infirmary). The New Jersey bill is different in that it also would require those sentenced to electronic monitoring to pay those expenses as well.

So, just another punishment or an impermissible blurring of the lines between government and private industry?

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by DEMachina, criminal justice, politics, law (all tags)

This story: 16 comments (2 from subqueue)
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1

Re: The Revolving Door Has a Fee

port1080.

Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 09:39:08 AM EST

none

The proposed NY bill seems fairly reasonable.  The big problem I have with these sorts of laws is that most people who go to prison already are of low income and have few prospects.  If you bill them for their stay, you're basically taking away any chance of them putting aside (or maintaining) enough seed money to do something with themselves once they get out of prison.  If you leave jail with a few bucks in the bank and some job training, maybe you'll make something of yourself.  If you leave jail owing $50k for your incarceration, have been brutally raped a few times and abused by the guards, what are the odds you feel like giving up your life of crime?

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

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Re: The Revolving Door Has a Fee

DEMachina.

Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 10:58:57 AM EST

none

Yeah exactly.  That's why I think the sliding scale is a necessity if they're going to do something like this.

But for the super-rich, it's hard to feel like it's a bad idea.  Especially when those people got rich by screwing those with less.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

2

Nope

uncarved block.

Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 09:51:09 AM EST

none

    Along the lines of the criminal who stated, "they tried me in my absence, convicted me in my absence, and they can hang me in my absence", I can't go along with anything along these lines, especially considering the continued illegality of marijuana*. The state can declare it wrong to smoke a drug that's been used by humans for over 2000 years, but actually charging someone for this imposition- on top of taking away their freedom- is going way too far. And if you only charge folks for committing some crimes and not others . . well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
    Why should taxpayers have to fork out to keep them locked up? Because, presumably, taxpayers benefit from having these wrongdoers off the street. Seems simple enough to me, but then I'm not trying to get elected to anything.

    *This is not the only example one could use, but is one of the strongest, IMO.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: Nope

HidingFromGoro.

Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 03:50:51 PM EST

none

Yo UC just in case you missed the subQ comment this is already being done in AZ; if you get sent to Mission (pima co. jail) for example, you will have to pay $70 in "jail costs" plus "fees & surcharges" for every day you spend there, this is in addition to any fines/restitution.  This has been going on for quite some time.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: Nope

pO157.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:28:04 PM EST

none

What if you are acquitted?

I am the only one that even approaches rationality.

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Re: Nope

HidingFromGoro.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:00:02 PM EST

none

It's billed at sentencing.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

3

unconstitutional?

wetkarma.

Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 10:22:26 AM EST

none

It seems to me that this would violate the equal treatment under the 14th amendment. You are essentially punishing some people more than others for the same crime based on their assets. If it was a flat rate like Jersey, I can see how it passes muster..but others wtf?

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

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Re: unconstitutional?

port1080.

Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 10:33:00 AM EST

none

You are essentially punishing some people more than others for the same crime based on their assets.

If that could be the basis for overturning this on equal protection, then wouldn't progressive income taxation also be illegal?

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

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Re: unconstitutional?

wetkarma.

Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 06:44:03 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Indeed progressive taxation was illegal under the constitution until an amendment was passed to allow it. But just because we allow progressive taxation (courtesy of constitutional amendment) doesn't mean that the equal protection statute gets thrown out.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

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Re: unconstitutional?

DEMachina.

Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 11:13:57 AM EST

none

Well, rich (or poor) is not a protected class, so all NY would have to show is that the policy is rationally related to some government interest.  I think there're definitely arguments to be made in favor of it in that regard, and laws are pretty much never thrown out on Equal Protection grounds under this standard.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

7

Re: The Revolving Door Has a Fee

arromdee.

Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 12:05:51 PM EST

none

So is the amount indexed for inflation?  Or will poor people 50 years from now making the equivalent of $10000 today be required to pay the entire cost of their prison stay?

10

Re: The Revolving Door Has a Fee

skeptic.

Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:03:01 PM EST

none

I do not like the idea that people will be required to pay for the privilege of being in prison, when they didn't want to be in prison in the first place.  So if you are in prison and refuse to pay, do you then get sentenced to additional prison time for this crime?  And if you then also refuse to pay for your additional prison time, then does your prison sentence expand indefinitelty?  The end result of that would be that instead of paying less to imprison someone, the taxpayers will pay more.

If the government wants to take away someone's money (or some portion thereof) they can always impose a fine.  I actually do think that it is generally better to fine criminals rather than to imprison them; fines raise money for the government, and imprisoning people costs the government money.  Of course, genuinely dangerous criminals do still need to be imprisoned, but the US is far too quick to imprison people, as seen by the ridiculously large prison population.  If there are that many dangerous criminals in the US, something has gone seriously wrong.

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Re: The Revolving Door Has a Fee

DEMachina.

Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 09:56:38 PM EST

none

I do not like the idea that people will be required to pay for the privilege of being in prison, when they didn't want to be in prison in the first place.

Well, they may not have wanted to be in prison per se, but they did choose to commit the crime.  This does raise an interesting question, though: what happens if someone is later judged innocent?  Do they get a refund?  IMO justice requires that they do, so it still won't recoup 100% of the government's costs, but it will do a lot.

I agree that far too many people are in prison, and there're some things (especially illegal drugs) that should not send someone to jail most of the time.

A scarier alternative is private prisons (although there's a strong argument to be made that there's already a private business interest in the prison system status quo)...profit-driven prisons would not be good.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

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Prison for profit

skeptic.

Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 08:40:49 AM EST

none

Yes, I deeply distrust the idea of making prison into another form of business for profit, although I also have to wonder if prisons could get any worse or more corrupt than they already are (as was recently brought out in our discussion of the problem of rape in prison).  But we have to make some effort to have a penal system whose objective is justice, not profit.

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Re: Prison for profit

HidingFromGoro.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 02:09:01 PM EST

none

In TX alone, 8 companies operate a total of 47,000 prison beds; all for profit.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: Prison for profit

pO157.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:29:37 PM EST

none

These things usually never end well.

I am the only one that even approaches rationality.

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