SciTech

Should grown men face-time with each other?

improper.

Posted to SciTech on Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 10:34:21 AM EST (promoted from Diaries by port1080). RSS.

Can a 7 year old be gay? Do they even think about sex?

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1

Re: You should grown men face-time with each other

HidingFromGoro.

Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 11:07:27 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

My 6yo thinks he's going to marry his "girlfriend" from the 1st-grade classroom.  He also thinks he's Indiana Jones.

Maybe a "wait-and-see" approach is best before determining the gender/sexual identity of small children.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: You should grown men face-time with each other

joshv.

Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 05:16:07 AM EST

none

I remember a kid from grade school who turned out to be gay.  If I'd had gaydar in 2nd grade, he would have set it off.

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I knew a 4th grader

wayhip.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 10:58:20 AM EST

none

Obviously a fem and he couldn't help it. If he did not grow up to be gay, closeted or otherwise, I would be shocked. The entire school knew it. I also knew a butch girl who loved ice hockey and would play field hockey with a friend of hers, female, all the time. The butch girl wanted to be a goalie.

It's genetic; except under special circumstances such as prisons, the military (long deployments, lonely nights), convents, and experimentation IMO.

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Re: You should mambo dogface to the banana patch

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 06:26:33 AM EST

none

You should get him a pair of these.

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Re: You should mambo dogface to the banana patch

improper.

Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 09:43:31 AM EST

none

Nice, but $480? Fuck that, get some Timberland Earthkeepers.

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Re: You should mambo dogface to the banana patch

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 10:56:29 AM EST

none

Sure. Nothing wrong with wearing sneakers.

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Re: You should mambo dogface to the banana patch

HidingFromGoro.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 08:57:40 PM EST

none

As soon as he's big enough, probably.  Also the Reeboks from Aliens.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: You should grown men face-time with each other

improper.

Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 09:42:34 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

He thinks he is Indiana Jones? How old is your six year old?

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Re: You should grown men face-time with each other

HidingFromGoro.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 08:48:06 PM EST

none

I limit TV but grandma lets him watch movies if he's good- and there isn't much to choose from at grandma's house besides Indiana Jones and My Cousin Vinny.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: You should grown men face-time with each other

improper.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 09:40:59 AM EST

none

What's his favorite Indiana Jones movie? (assuming he has watched them all)... Mine obviously is Temple of Doom.

My Cousin Vinny is such a good movie. Plus Marisa Tomei is hot.

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Re: You should grown men face-time with each other

HidingFromGoro.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 10:48:30 PM EST

none

they only have Raiders and Last Crusade (grandma doesn't like Temple and Crystal Skull "isn't really Indiana Jones"), he likes them about the same- Raiders has the rolling rock and the truck scene; Crusade has the librarian scene and the tank scene (and also the part where Connery scares the birds with the umbrella).  plus i think Raiders is the only time where he swings across a gap with his whip but it's been a long time since i've seen any of them all the way through.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: You should grown men face-time with each other

improper.

Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 07:05:51 PM EST

none

The Crystal Skull was a joke (the South Park episode where they destroyed it was great). Raiders of the Lost Ark is probably the most impressive.

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Re: You should grown men face-time with each other

thefadd.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 08:04:05 PM EST

none

I remember the movies at grandma's. All we had was princess bride and disorderlies for some reason.

I HAD HAD SEX WITH HUNTER S THOMPSON. HE CAME IN MY MOUTH AND I SWALLOWED IT. I SHOULD HAVE HAD HIS BABY. WE WOULD BE BALLIN' LIKE KOBE'S SON!!

7

Re: You should grown men face-time with each other

thefadd.

Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 11:36:32 AM EST

none

I thought about sec all the time at that age. We'd draw pictures of it, kids brought in their dads playboys. I specifically remember a few kids who were clearly going to end up "gay" as the liberals call them. But HFG is very clearly right on his point -- kids are going to play and explore and we shouldn't be putting our adult labels on them -- especially not to protect them. I'm very glad to have gone to a school were for the most part we were free to define ourselves. In the end I think that was the most self-esteem building thing to do. Of course us adults would probably do well to go easy on the labels amongst ourselves as well.

I HAD HAD SEX WITH HUNTER S THOMPSON. HE CAME IN MY MOUTH AND I SWALLOWED IT. I SHOULD HAVE HAD HIS BABY. WE WOULD BE BALLIN' LIKE KOBE'S SON!!

8

Arrow of causality

Ephraim Gadsby.

Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 06:14:25 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

Does the seven year old like Glee because he's gay, or did watching Glee make him gay?

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Re: Arrow of causality

natophonic.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 02:05:03 PM EST

none

Obviously it was going to see Cirque du Soleil that turned him into a homosexualist.

9

Re: Should grown men face-time with each other?

port1080.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 10:45:35 AM EST

5.00

This is something that I think about a lot, actually, pondering how I will raise my kids if my wife and I are ever fortunate enough to get things working.  If homosexuality is genetic, there's a decent chance this is something I might have to deal with - I have many cousins on my father's side that are your stereotypical "confirmed bachelors" and "maiden aunts", plus a few that are married but that I nonetheless question whether they would have if they'd grown up in different times, or in a less religious household.  I want to offer a supportive environment for whatever the kid chooses, but I worry about how to deal with the questions when the kid's that age.  Seven or eight year olds DO think about sex (I know I did...I found a read one of my parent's sex manuals when I was about that old, and soon after managed to get my hands on a friend's father's Playboy...Lord knows what I would have been into if the internet had been around back then), but it's not exactly a fully formed thing.  Around the same time I was reading the sex manuals, I also thought it was cool to put on strip tease shows.  If Glee had been around and was a show I had watched, who knows?  I don't think it matters all that much in the long run...if a kid self-identifies as gay when it's six or seven by mistake, if he's not gay he'll figure that out when the cheerleaders are running around with the short skirts and the low cut tops in high school.  If he is gay, well, he got an early start on figuring himself out.  This is one thing I keep telling myself...maybe the best thing you can do as a parent is just stay out of the way.

Allons-y!

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Re: Should grown men face-time with each other?

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 06:22:48 PM EST

none

If homosexuality is genetic...
Of course homosexuality is genetic.

...I have many cousins on my father's side that are your stereotypical "confirmed bachelors" and "maiden aunts"...
Why do you believe that the genetic influences on homosexuality are the same for men as for women? Or do you merely assume that your family has both in roughly the same proportion? (If so, explain how your observations of the behavior of the last two generations has affected the frequency of these allele(s) during your lifetime.)

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Re: Should grown men face-time with each other?

port1080.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 07:34:39 PM EST

none

Of course homosexuality is genetic.

I lean towards thinking that, but sometimes I think that it's a combination of socialization + genetics, or even more likely it occurs during fetal development due to chance hormonal fluctuations - so while it's not exactly genetic, it's not a choice either.  Or maybe it's a combination of all of the above - genetic for some people, fetal exposure to unusual hormones in others, socialization in still others.  I don't think there necessarily has to be one particular pathway.

Why do you believe that the genetic influences on homosexuality are the same for men as for women

Good point, and one that I hadn't really thought about.  Could be the maiden aunts really are just maiden aunts, but I'm 100% sure at least one of the male cousins is gay, and have strong reason to believe a few more are.  Maybe I'm just projecting that on the women (who are definitely not "out" if they do trend homosexual).

Allons-y!

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Re: Should brown men face-time with each other?

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 08:18:31 PM EST

none

...even more likely it occurs during fetal development due to chance hormonal fluctuations - so while it's not exactly genetic...
Hormones aren't produced by genes? Where do they come from? Walmart?

... I'm 100% sure at least one of the male cousins is gay...
You could have said "no."

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Re: Should brown men face-time with each other?

HidingFromGoro.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 08:42:13 PM EST

none

pretty sure he's talking about exposure to the mother's hormones, which while they're produced by the mother's glands (and i guess that sort of counts as being "produced by genes") would be different from the baby's own hormones, "produced by" the baby's own "genes."

as far as the whole thing of "it might be a choice," well on that one i don't know what he's on about.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: Should brown men face-time with each other?

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 09:07:17 PM EST

none

Sort of? Is there a chance that the hormones are off-the-shelf?

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Re: Should brown men face-time with each other?

HidingFromGoro.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 12:14:02 AM EST

none

I have no idea what his understanding of hormones/genetics are, just trying to offer a possible explanation.

I'm sure there's a perfectly scientific explanation for those urges you feel.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: Should brown men face-time with each other?

port1080.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 06:15:38 AM EST

none

as far as the whole thing of "it might be a choice," well on that one i don't know what he's on about.

Did I say it was a choice?  I don't think it is - even if it's caused by socialization for some people I think it happens early enough in a kid's life that it's not really something they have a lot of control over.  Even if socialization is a pathway, I think there's probably a physiological component to that too - some people are wired to be hetero, some are wired to be homosexual, and some have indeterminate wiring.  Those people could be called bi-sexual, but I don't think that every person who has that indeterminate wiring ends up having both hetero and homosexual relationships - socialization would play a strong role with those folks.  Some will end up hetero, some will end up homosexual, and some will be truly bi-sexual - but a fairly small number, because there's a lot of pressure to either just be straight, or if you end up in the gay community, to identify as a gay rather than bi (there are a lot in the gay community that deny that being bi is even a valid orientation).

Allons-y!

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Re: Should brown men face-time with each other?

HidingFromGoro.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 11:04:13 PM EST

none

You sure didn't, don't know wtf i was smoking.

also good call on

there are a lot in the gay community that deny that being bi is even a valid orientation

you should see what some in 'the community' have to say about the transgendered- especially transgendered of color.  one of the biggest criticisms of the 'gay community' is that a lot of times it would be more properly called the 'white, male, affluent, gay community.'  in that respect at least they're just like straights.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: Should brown men face-time with each other?

port1080.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 06:04:17 AM EST

none

Hormones aren't produced by genes? Where do they come from? Walmart?

I was talking about fetal exposure to the mother's hormones, as HFG said.  Hormone fluctuation isn't just a matter of genetics - environmental factors can influence it, so can random chance.  If the exact same woman could have a heterosexual kid or a homosexual kid, and the fact that she had one or the other was caused by some stress or other environmental factor that led to a hormone fluctuation at a key point in fetal development, I don't see what leverage we gain by calling that "genetic."  If this is one pathway to have a homosexual child, then anyone could have a homosexual child.  As for the rest of your comment, I won't dignify it with a response - your Socratic trolling is what it is, but I thought incest jokes were beneath you.

Allons-y!

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Re: Should blown men face-time with each other?

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 07:25:30 AM EST

none

Hormone fluctuation isn't just a matter of genetics...
Nothing is.

...environmental factors can influence it...
Not only can, but almost certainly do.

I don't see what leverage we gain by calling that "genetic."
But wait...I thought you said it runs in your family?

...I thought incest jokes were beneath you
I can understand why you would want the incident behind you, but I don't think there is anything wrong with humor.

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Re: Should blown men face-time with each other?

port1080.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 07:53:27 AM EST

none

But wait...I thought you said it runs in your family?

If you read carefully, I said that it's probably genetic, hormonal, and socialization.  In any particular homosexual person, their orientation could have been determined by any one or a combination of those factors.  So yes, it runs in families, but there will also be cases that crop up where there is no logical explanation based on genetic inheritance.  In those cases it could be hormonal or socialization.  I'd guess most cases can be best explained by inherited genetic traits, but I don't think all are.

Allons-y!

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Re: Should blown men face-time with each other?

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 08:58:47 AM EST

none

...it's probably genetic, hormonal, and socialization.  In any particular homosexual person, their orientation could have been determined by any one or a combination of those factors
I find it nearly impossible to believe that it could be caused solely by "socialization." As for the hypothesis that it may be caused by abnormal fetal hormonal levels, do you think all women are equally susceptible to such abnormalities?

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Re: Should blown men face-time with each other?

port1080.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 09:02:39 AM EST

none

I find it nearly impossible to believe that it could be caused solely by "socialization."

See my discussion of bi-sexuality above - that's what I mean by socialization.  I doubt any kid that is born with a distinctly hetero orientation could be socialized to be gay, but I think that at least some percentage of the population have an indeterminate orientation that can be influenced by socialization.

As for the hypothesis that it may be caused by abnormal fetal hormonal levels, do you think all women are equally susceptible to such abnormalities?

I don't know and I don't know enough about the subject offer an informed opinion.

Allons-y!

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Re: Should blown men face-time with each other?

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 09:13:14 AM EST

none

Do you know of any other trait for which there is no observed genetic variability?

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Re: Should grown men face-time with each other?

Ephraim Gadsby.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 01:03:27 PM EST

none

Greg Cochran writes:

The most likely explanation for human homosexuality is that it is caused by some pathogen.  It's too common to be mutational pressure (and we don't see syndromic versions, as we would in that case), it's not new, identical twins are usually discordant (~75% of the time), and it's hell on reproductive fitness.  There is no way it is adaptive: the helpful gay uncle notion, group selection, compensating advantage in females, etc: these range from impossible to bloody unlikely.  It doesn't exist in most hunter-gatherers: you have to explain what it is you're even talking about when you ask them.  Presumably with diagrams.

As for Freudian explanations, exotic-becomes-erotic, etc: just reading the social-science literature on the subject is enough to make you wonder if the human brain really does exist to cool the blood.

A fair number of the smarter people interested in the subject agree with me.  Not that they think it proven, but they agree that it is the only theory out there that makes any evolutionary sense.  Bill Hamilton thought it made sense. So does Alan Grafen.

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Re: Should grown men face-time with each other?

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 01:20:43 PM EST

none

I agree that his pathogen hypothesis is more likely than the 'gay uncle' theory for no other reason that it is the more parsimonious of the two. (One must jump through a lot of hoops to get the math to work out for the 'gay uncle' theory.) Even more parsimonious, however, is the idea that not all genetic traits are adaptive.

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Re: Should grown men face-time with each other?

Ephraim Gadsby.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 02:22:02 PM EST

none

Genetic traits that reduce reproductive fitness will not be maintained in a population.

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Re: Should grown men face-time with each other?

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 06:14:49 PM EST

none

Yes. But perhaps there are sexually antagonistic genes or pleiotropy that explain the persistence of homosexuality.

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Re: Should grown men face-time with each other?

Ephraim Gadsby.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 06:40:00 PM EST

none

It's too prevalent. Cochran goes into more detail here.

 

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Re: Should grown men face-time with each other?

thefadd.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 08:08:34 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I know plenty of "gays" that fuck girls to have a baby. That's why homosexuality is obviously not genetic but a social lifestyle choice.

I HAD HAD SEX WITH HUNTER S THOMPSON. HE CAME IN MY MOUTH AND I SWALLOWED IT. I SHOULD HAVE HAD HIS BABY. WE WOULD BE BALLIN' LIKE KOBE'S SON!!

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Re: Should grown men face-time with each other?

Ephraim Gadsby.

Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 01:37:28 PM EST

none

I know plenty of people who can't do math.

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