Politics

Pennsylvania had its turn

Anywhere.

Posted to Politics on Thu May 31, 2012 at 10:14:20 AM EST (promoted from Diaries by port1080). RSS.

Now it's Florida's.  Broward County's election officials have asked a 91-year-old WWII vet from Brooklyn to prove he is a US citizen and eligible to vote.  If there is a reason, other than his name ending in a vowel, that the state suspected his ineligibility, I'd be interested in hearing it.

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1

Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

zyxwvutsr.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 10:26:29 AM EST

none

If there is a reason, other than his name ending in a vowel, that the state suspected his ineligibility, I'd be interested in hearing it
Let's start with the assumption that your belief in a massive conspiracy is almost certainly nothing but a product of your fevered imagination and whatever biases you drag into your "reasoning."

Then, examine the story you linked to (perhaps you didn't read it?) and you might notice this:

Florida's top elections officials recently sent to the counties a list of 53,000 people believed to be dead who should be removed from the voter rolls.

That's something county elections officials do routinely, using death notices...

[Emphasis mine.]

That's a perfectly innocent explanation, of course. But - you will no doubt interject - Mr. Internicola is very clearly still alive! There must be a conspiracy based on racism!

Unless there was in fact another Bill Internicola, of the same age, who lived nearby and was deceased. 'That's crazy,' you might protest, 'what are the odds of that?!' Pretty good odds, actually. (For those of you too lazy to click through and do the math and look at a map, another William Internicola, born about the same date as the one in the story and who lived about 10 miles from Broward County, died in 1999.)

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Anywhere.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 10:48:43 AM EST

none

From the story that you so clearly read:

He recently received a letter from county elections officials asking him to show proof he was a U.S. citizen or be removed from the voting rolls.

They didn't send him a letter asking him if he was still alive.  They sent him a letter asking him to prove he was a U.S. citizen-- something that you think maybe should have been handled when he registered to vote.  The question is, what made the state key on him and 127,000 living others as potentially ineligible to vote?  And why did they decide to do their purge so close to the actual vote when experience has shown that the timing will result in eligible voters being turned away from the polls?

Based on your comments in the Pennsylvania story-- i.e. Why should someone have to show an ID to vote?-- I'm a little surprised at your reaction here.  Let's start with the assumption that you're going to have a kneejerk whenever you see my name at the top of a post and understand your comment in that light.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

zyxwvutsr.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 11:10:03 AM EST

none

My reaction here is that your notion that his name had anything to do with the situation is an extraordinary claim.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Anywhere.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 11:12:49 AM EST

none

Whereas your notion that the death of a man with the same name 13 years ago had anything to do with the situation is simply laughable.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Gaius Petronius.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 01:52:59 PM EST

none

The dead voter issue isn't laughable. Until recently nobody was correlating death certificates with voter rolls. Up here in Chicago, I am a volunteer election judge, and every year there are several dead people on my poll list. If nobody tells the election board, they have no reason to challenge the name.

In the past some political operations have sent postcards to all the voters in a district asking them to confirm that they are still at such and such an address. If they don't get a reply, the names are officially challenged at the next election. This means that if they in fact show up at the poll, they have to identify themselves, something that usually is not demanded in Illinois elections. Even if you don't have a formal ID, you can get two people to vouch for you. Since  the precienct I usually work is made up of one high-rise building, this is not difficult. I should say that the issue has never come up in my polling place.

If you decided to mount a challenge based on ethnicity, you would do better to use zip codes instead of names; its far more accurate.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Anywhere.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 02:14:54 PM EST

none

The dead voter issue isn't laughable.

No, you're right, but zyxwvutsr's assertion that that was the issue in this case was laughable* when:

  1. The same-named person in question had died 13 years ago, and
  2. The guy wasn't expunged for being dead.  His citizenship was questioned.  There were two sets of notices: 180,000 possible non-citizens and 53,000 suspected dead.  Internicola was in the former category.

*And only because he posited it as the "obvious" alternative but it falls apart on easy inspection.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Gaius Petronius.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 02:32:51 PM EST

none

Interesting question.... are dead people still citizens?  Of course, if they are still registered to vote........

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Ephraim Gadsby.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 12:48:44 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

"They sent him a letter asking him to prove he was a U.S. citizen-- something that you think maybe should have been handled when he registered to vote"

The Florida DMV only recently began collecting citizenship data. It's likely this guy no longer drives, so his DMV information is old.

"what made the state key on him and 127,000 living others as potentially ineligible to vote"

They are comparing the DMV and voter registration databases. Florida has asked for access to the DHS's citzenship databases, but the fed's have refused.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Anywhere.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 11:09:36 AM EST

none

Also, if you really thought, Mr. Internicola was caught up in the death notice purge, what was your thinking on why they waited 13 years to question him?  Do you suppose there's a dark office at the state board of elections somewhere with a dusty stack of 1999 death notices that they're just now getting to?

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

zyxwvutsr.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 11:14:29 AM EST

none

It is the most plausible explanation that has been presented.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

improper.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 11:22:02 AM EST

none

Of course they are now just getting to them because it is of the utmost importance that dead people do not elect a black guy.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

arromdee.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 10:27:48 AM EST

none

I agree!  We should not require proof that people are eligible to vote!

Hmm, that doesn't sound so good.

I agree!  We should exempt people from having to prove they're eligible to vote if they're war veterans!

Hmm, that doesn't sound so good either.

And it's not as if he can't prove it.  It's just that having to prove it offends him.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

zyxwvutsr.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 10:29:23 AM EST

none

Why should he have to prove it? Let the State of Florida prove he's not a citizen if that's their hypothesis.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

rickb928.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 10:48:16 AM EST

none

If I were challenged by the state of Arizona to offer proof of citizenship and residency, I would consider it a privilege to provide it.  Not annoyed at all.  

I do have an attested copy of my birth certificate, which has come in very handy more often than I thought it would.  I haven't had a Social Security card since before my 19th birthday, it was taken by an Air Force recruiter and not returned (an oversight I suspect), and having seen them lately, I'm surprised anyone considers them useful at all.  They are trivially easy to counterfeit.  My birth certificate at least requires I get an embosser, which is slightly more difficult than running the Gimp and retouching scanned SS cards.  Getting good index stock is simpe enough also.

Arizona gets a load of criticism for permitting polls to require identification to vote.  Even utilitiy bills are adequate, IIRC.

In the U.S., voter fraud is roundly denied.  This strikes me as either a tacit denial to avoid exploring what is a measurable and potentially real problem, or a strategy to avoid scrutiny and so continue their shenigans.  I'm suspicious that voter fraud is a real problem, and we will eventually find out that close elections, becoming the norm, will be impacted.  Electronic voting is not the solution yet.  Nothing proposed in the U.S. is acceptable.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Anywhere.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 11:00:24 AM EST

none

If I were challenged by the state of Arizona to offer proof of citizenship and residency, I would consider it a privilege to provide it.  Not annoyed at all.

I wouldn't either.  Well, I would since I'm not in Arizona, but I wouldn't be annoyed if my state wanted proof of citizenship . . . when I was registering to vote.  And I wouldn't be annoyed if my state wanted proof of identity . . . when I was voting.  But mailing out a request for proof of citizenship with an arbitrary deadline to avoid being removed from the rolls . . . yes, I'd be annoyed, and yes, I think it will disenchranchise legitimate voters.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Anywhere.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 10:51:41 AM EST

none

I'm on record as being fine with requiring ID to prove eligibility to vote.  I'm less fine with requiring proof of citizenship, via a mailed form with a 30-day turnaround time within three months of a vote.  Purging the dead from the rolls?  Fine, but citizenship should be handled when you register to vote.

4

Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Gaius Petronius.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 10:35:52 AM EST

none

If having a vowel at the end one's last name is a disqualifier for voting, that would cause some trouble for Florida Senator Marco Antonio Rubio (R) who has three of them! Also, one of the most consistant conservative voting blocs in that state are anti-Castro Cubans, whose names abouond in terminal Os.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Anywhere.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 10:55:09 AM EST

none

It was a joke.  I'll try to keep my posts more serious in the future.

Not a hit on you.  I expect zyxwvutsr to jump on whatever he can no matter its relevance to the actual story, but since you reacted to that, too, instead of the larger story, I obviously failed.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

improper.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 11:26:07 AM EST

none

Rubio in spanish means: blonde, fair.

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Re: Pennsylvania had its turn

Ephraim Gadsby.

Thu May 31, 2012 at 02:58:09 PM EST

none

New Mexico voter fraud.

Analysis of Motor Voter Act and voter fraud.

Motor Voter originated with the Marxists Frances Fox Piven and  Richard Cloward. More here.

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