Politics

When the dots form into connections

gerrymander.

Posted to Politics on Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 08:30:52 AM EST (promoted from Diaries by port1080). RSS.

1974 - Richard Nixon asserts executive privilege over documents related to the Watergate scandal.

1998 - Bill Clinton asserts executive privilege over documents related to the Lewinsky scandal.

2012 - Barack Obama asserts executive privilege over documents related to the Fast & Furious scandal.

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1

Re: When the dots form into connections

Ephraim Gadsby.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 12:49:28 PM EST

none

White House involvement would seem to contradict Holder's testimony under oath.

Related.

2

Re: When the dots form into connections

Haggis.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 01:54:06 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

I know gerrymander was trying to come off bi-partisan by mentioning the Nixon assertions of executive privilege.  But, how about a more recent example of Republican shenanigans, like when Veep Cheney claimed executive privilege on any documents or discussions had in his offices on energy policy even after he had spent the previous five years asserting the office of the Veep wasn't an executive office?

I am shitfitter; hear me roar.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

zyxwvutsr.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 02:44:59 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Cheney didn't break the law.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

Haggis.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 10:52:01 PM EST

none

Of course, without access to the records which are privileged there is no way of ascertaining whether Cheney broke the law or not.

I am shitfitter; hear me roar.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 06:46:26 AM EST

none

One could at least propose a law that might have been broken, if one were serious.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

Haggis.

Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 07:19:27 AM EST

none

One could stop being a shameless shill for the Republican Party, if one were serious.

I am shitfitter; hear me roar.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 08:56:33 AM EST

5.00 (mindful)

Yes, I assumed you did not actually have a law in mind.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

improper.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 02:58:34 PM EST

none

Or the deleting emails.

Or Albert fuckin' Gonzales forgetting just about anything and everything.

Or hiding documents related to firing US attorneys for partisan purposes.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

zyxwvutsr.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 03:08:16 PM EST

none

Nothing came of those incidents.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

Ephraim Gadsby.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 03:48:27 PM EST

none

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Re: When the dots form into connections

improper.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 03:00:19 PM EST

none

Also it's hilarious for Republicans like gerrymander to use Nixon in an attempt to be perceived as bipartisan. It's like saying "oh yeah Hitler was a bad guy... see? I'm not a racist."

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Re: When the dots form into connections

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 09:37:26 AM EST

none

I think the administration would be best served by coming clean on this.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

ThePlague.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 04:14:49 PM EST

5.00 (interesting, fair)

I find it interesting that

Holder told reporters that he offered to provide the documents on the condition that Issa gave his assurance that doing so would satisfy two committee subpoenas and resolve the dispute.

But now, apparently, turning over the documents would impede the executive branch's ability to fulfill it's constitutional duties as an independent part of the USFG.  That's the definition of executive privilege, after all, the rational behind it.  I don't see how the exact same documents could have undergone a transformation from a bargaining chip in negotiations, willing to be given up in a horse trade, to a matter of constitutional importance.

I suspect that these particular documents don't really matter that much in and of themselves, but they could be bread crumbs to more damning evidence, either legally or politically.  So, play them up as much as possible, and then "compromise" by turning them over.  Then, if followup is requested (more documents!), play the partisan witch hunt card as an investigation that never ends.  If these inferences are correct, it's a very shrewd move, and could quite possibly "work" in the political sense.

the secret to happiness is to have you pay for my cocaine and mountain climbing-p0157

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Re: When the dots form into connections

Ephraim Gadsby.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 04:17:50 PM EST

none

Good points.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

novy.

Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 03:09:09 PM EST

none

"1954 - During the Army-McCarthy hearings in 1954, Eisenhower used the claim of executive privilege to forbid the 'provision of any data about internal conversations, meetings, or written communication among staffers, with no exception to topics or people.'"

[Obviously trying to cover-up his Communist connections, and it worked! You never hear anyone accuse Eisenhower of being Communist these days.]

"The Clinton administration invoked executive privilege on fourteen occasions. In 1998, President Bill Clinton became the first President since Nixon to assert executive privilege and lose in court, when a Federal judge ruled that Clinton aides could be called to testify in the Lewinsky scandal. Later, Clinton exercised a form of negotiated executive privilege when he agreed to testify before the grand jury called by Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr only after negotiating the terms under which he would appear."

[He LIED about his sex life! In Court! And he raped that woman, and he killed that staffer, and he kept screwing all those fat ugly women! He had no taste at all. Bastard.]

"The Bush administration invoked executive privilege on six occasions. President George W. Bush first asserted executive privilege to deny disclosure of sought details regarding former Attorney General Janet Reno, the scandal involving Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) misuse of organized-crime informants James J. Bulger and Stephen Flemmi in Boston, and Justice Department deliberations about President Bill Clinton's fundraising tactics, in December 2001. Bush invoked executive privilege 'in substance' in refusing to disclose the details of Vice President Dick Cheney's meetings with energy executives, which was not appealed by the GAO. In a separate Supreme Court decision in 2004, however, Justice Anthony Kennedy noted 'Executive privilege is an extraordinary assertion of power 'not to be lightly invoked.' United States v. Reynolds, 345 U.S. 1, 7 (1953)."

[Blah, blah, Harriet Miers, blah, Joshua Bolten, blah, blah, Pat Tillman, blah, Karl Rove, blah, blah, J. Scott Jennings, blah, Andy Vollmer, et alia ad nauseum.]

So, Obama finally used executive privilege too? OMG! Guilty as charged! [What did he do again?]

(Or maybe just cynical, as ThePlague suggests. But either way...)

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Re: When the dots form into connections

novy.

Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 08:37:33 PM EST

none

I just know that St. Ronald would never have used executive privilege, more than say 3 times.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

Jackkeefe.

Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 01:30:52 PM EST

none

After 4 years of hope and change, we are left with Bush did it too..

Just a couple of years after liberals were gnashing their teeth and rending their garments over Bush's supposedly unconstituinal use of executive power, the precedents of the worst president ever are now SOP for the chosen one.   Executive privilige, rendition, GITMO, millitarty tribunals, assassinations of American citizens, signing statements, invading soverign countries without Congressional Approval, adminstrative orders to get around  Congress.... the list is endless. Bush and Cheney must be crying in their pillows over what small time pikers they were.

After years of trying to figure out the complete hypocrisy of Obama's supporters, its clear their creed is just an updated version of the divine right
of kings, with Obama as the infallible.  

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Re: When the dots form into connections

Otto Maddox.

Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 04:13:45 PM EST

none

What Nixon and Chimpy did was to attempt to hide politically motivated shenanigans. Holder wasn't involved in anything of the sort.

And I will give Reagan one thing. At least he knew when to back off when he got caught with his pants down (Iran Contra).

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something if his salary depends on his not understanding it" ~Sinclair

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Re: When the dots form into connections

Jackkeefe.

Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:25:08 PM EST

none

to hide politically motivated shenanigans. Holder wasn't involved in anything of the sort.

You owe me for the dental costs I incurred after my jaw hit the floor.  This claim is 100% about politics and trying to save Holder's ass after he got caught lying.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

Otto Maddox.

Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 08:50:59 AM EST

none

Specifically, what 'political shenanigans' was Holder involved in?

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something if his salary depends on his not understanding it" ~Sinclair

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Re: When the dots form into connections

novy.

Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:57:16 PM EST

none

Hey, Bush 41 only did it once, just like Obama so far.

That Fast and Furious scandal really inspires me. Bungling that investigation must be embarrassing to Pres and AG alike. No wonder Obama wants to hide what really went on from Americans. It may not sound like much compared to what right-wingers used to claim about Clinton (murder, rape, dirty financial deals), but any port will do when you have to attack someone who looks like Mr. Clean, I suppose.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

Jackkeefe.

Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:22:13 PM EST

none

attack someone who looks like Mr. Clean

To who?  He preens about being clean and than operates like any other politician. The only thing exceptional about Obama is his  self-righteousness.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

novy.

Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:33:53 PM EST

none

Politicians always operate like politicians. They don't always arrange to kill staff members or rape women, as many right-wingers think of Clinton. They also don't always have affairs (as so many Presidents have). They also don't always use executive privilege to cover attacks on foreign countries (Cambodia, Nicaragua, et alia). They also don't always use executive privilege to cover outright criminal activity.

No doubt you have ugly feelings about Obama, but I doubt you think he has done any of these things.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

HidingFromGoro.

Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 11:50:12 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Obama's been Black Reagan from day 1, literally the only reason anyone still supports him "b-b-but a Republican could in theory be worse!"

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

17

Re: When the dots form into connections

Otto Maddox.

Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:15:59 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

And yet zealots of the Republican cult were completely unable to connect the bright red flashing dots between a cabinet composed of the founding members of the PNAC and the ginning up of evidence for a war that killed tens of thousands of civilians, costs the American tax payers hundreds of billions of dollars and only accomplished further destabilization of the region.

Do get me wrong, Obama is a tool. He is obviously hiding misdeeds. But trying to equate this with what Nixon or Dubya did is transparently absurd.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something if his salary depends on his not understanding it" ~Sinclair

24

Re: When the dots form into connections

thefadd.

Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 11:11:15 PM EST

none

Personally I'm sort of getting fast and furious fatigue at this point and I suppose that's part of Holder's strategy. Hopefully they've stirred enough of the NRA's hornets nest that their strategy of using the charade as an excuse to ban guns has sufficiently backfired and that's all the upside I care about at the end of the day.

I HAD HAD SEX WITH HUNTER S THOMPSON. HE CAME IN MY MOUTH AND I SWALLOWED IT. I SHOULD HAVE HAD HIS BABY. WE WOULD BE BALLIN' LIKE KOBE'S SON!!

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Re: When the dots form into connections

improper.

Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 11:55:51 AM EST

none

What gun control regulation were they trying to pass with this charade?

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Re: When the dots form into connections

ThePlague.

Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 05:29:37 AM EST

5.00 (damning)

Demand Letters.  So, the basic strategy was to purposefully not enforce existing laws (investigate suspicious sales as reported by gun shops), and then use the results as a justification for more stringent laws:

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

the secret to happiness is to have you pay for my cocaine and mountain climbing-p0157

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Re: When the dots form into connections

improper.

Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 10:43:39 AM EST

none

From your link:

The reporting requirements were to apply if a gun dealer sells two or more long guns to a single person within five business days, and only if the guns are semi-automatic, greater than .22 caliber and can be fitted with a detachable magazine.

So they did all that so they MAYBE could get these reporting requirements? Oh horror.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

ThePlague.

Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 10:56:16 AM EST

5.00 (spoken)

I agree, it was rather silly to abrogate the responsibility in enforcing one law in order to get a more stringent one passed, but such are the calculations of the power-hungry.

the secret to happiness is to have you pay for my cocaine and mountain climbing-p0157

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Re: When the dots form into connections

improper.

Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 02:55:40 PM EST

none

If reporting gun sales of long, semi-automatic weapons with high calibers is now considered "stringent" regulation, then we have definitely become a pussy state and it is child abuse to withhold alcohol from a child.

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Re: When the dots form into connections

ThePlague.

Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 03:06:24 PM EST

5.00 (climactic)

You would be right if there were an amendment that specifically gave children the right to imbibe alcohol.  Since there's not, well, you do the math.

It does open the interesting reveal that, apparently, it is believed that the executive branch has free reign to only enforce the laws it supports, while ignoring any inconvenient ones.  Furthermore, if the ends are noble (for some value of noble), then purposefully ignoring laws to effect a better political climate to enact even tougher laws (i.e. gun control) are not only laudable, but shrewd politics.  It has to get worse before it gets better, after all.  Heh.

the secret to happiness is to have you pay for my cocaine and mountain climbing-p0157

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Re: When the dots form into connections

John Adams.

Fri Jun 29, 2012 at 11:06:09 AM EST

none

How would requiring gun dealers to report certain sales violate the 2nd Amendment?  Is there a part in there about not having to tell anybody about it when you sell the arms to people?

33

Re: When the dots form into connections

Ephraim Gadsby.

Tue Jun 26, 2012 at 12:34:33 PM EST

none

Informative analysis from a former federal prosecutor. Among other things he points out the wiretaps used mean senior DOJ officials must have been involved in F&F. Also interesting:

Washington-based Justice Department officials had earlier [in 2010] discussed bringing Attorney General Eric Holder to Phoenix for a triumphant press conference with Arizona U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke to herald the conclusion of the Department's flagship firearms trafficking case. In the aftermath of Agent Terry's death, the task of announcing indictments at a press conference fell to ATF Phoenix Division Special Agent in Charge William Newell and Burke. Holder did not attend.

Flashback to 2009:

Meeting face-to-face with Mexican President Felipe Calderon, President Obama on Thursday said the U.S. is to blame for much of Mexico's drug violence, and he set up a major congressional gun-control battle by calling on the Senate to ratify a treaty designed to track and cut the flow of guns to other countries.

Mr. Obama said he wants to renew a ban on some semiautomatic weapons but that it is not likely to pass Congress. Instead, he called for the Senate to ratify a decade-old hemispherewide treaty that would require nations to mark all weapons produced in the country and track them to make sure no weapons were exported to countries where they were banned.

"I will not pretend that this is Mexico's responsibility alone. The demand for these drugs in the United States is what's helping keep these cartels in business," Mr. Obama said at a joint news conference with Mr. Calderon. "This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border."

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