Politics

America: Disabled Nation

zyxwvutsr.

Posted to Politics on Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 11:57:23 AM EST (promoted from Diaries by port1080). RSS.

More Americans are collecting federal disability payments than ever.

Congress enacted legislation in 1956 to add federal disability insurance to the Social Security system. Over the decades, the number of Americans actually working has dramatically declined relative to the number claiming federal disability insurance payments.

By July 1967, there 74,520,000 Americans actually working and 1,145,663 workers taking disability payments. That made a ratio of 65 actual workers for each worker collecting disability. In July 1987, there were 112,634,000 people actually working and 2,759,852 people collecting disability--a ratio of about 41 actual workers to each worker collecting disability.

When President Barack Obama took office in January 2009, there were 142,187,000 people actually working  and 7,442,377 workers collecting disability--a ratio of about 19 to 1.

In June, there were 142,415,000 people actually working and 8,733,461 workers claiming disability--a ratio of about 16 to 1.

Of course, giving people federal payments stimulates the economy, right? So this is good news!

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1

Re: America: Disabled Nation

improper.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 10:04:55 AM EST

none

Question: Is what is considered a disability been relaxed? I mean I see a lot of people that can walk who park in handicapped parking spots. What's up with that?

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

port1080.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 10:46:57 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

I mean I see a lot of people that can walk who park in handicapped parking spots. What's up with that?

This is a problem - my father is disabled (he had polio when he was a young child, and now suffers from post-polio syndrome).  He can walk without a walker or a cane, although he has a bit of a limp (that's recent, though), but every step he takes puts a great deal of stress on his muscles (the few has has left), and the more he has to walk, the more likely that one of his legs will give out on him and he'll fall.  If he has to walk a great deal in the course of a day, he pays for it the next day and can't really get off the couch.  He could get a wheel chair or one of those motorized carts, but with his condition it's pretty much "use it or lose it" - if he started relying on those to get around, pretty soon he wouldn't be able to walk even when he wanted to.  So, he has a hang-tag for his car that indicates he's disabled, and he parks in the handicapped spots, quite justifiably - but if you saw him walking back from the grocery store with two bags of groceries you'd probably wonder how he was cheating the system.  On the flip side, I know a lot of people DO cheat the system, and it really pisses me off, since they take spots away from people like my father who actually do need them.  Still, knowing what my father's gone through, I don't just automatically judge somewhat based on how they look - it's possible to look completely healthy and still have some pretty severe problems.  

Allons-y!

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

Gaius Petronius.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 12:09:01 PM EST

none

I think you also may see an able-bodied person parking in the blue space, then go inside to collect their disabled loved one and get them into the car.

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

improper.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 12:49:06 PM EST

none

Sorry if I came off insensitive. I think you have spoken about your father's disability before but that hadn't crossed my mind.

Your father is probably the exception. I have seen and met too many people that abuse the tag to think it's not the exception. Actually, one lady I worked with in the past was quite proud of her handicap tag and would brag about it.

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

ThePlague.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 02:15:27 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Reserved parking spaces are a status symbol, so of course she'd be proud of it.

the secret to happiness is to have you pay for my cocaine and mountain climbing-p0157

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I Get It!

novy.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 11:00:34 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

America has been going crazy. That explains why so many people who look like they can function really can't. Post-traumatic stress disorder may explain all those folks who've come back from Afghanistan and Iraq, plus some occasional mass murderers like The Joker Holmes, but bipolars, schizos, and paranoids ought to get counted in, too.

If I lived in your country and had to choose between your candidates, maybe I'd go crazy, too.  

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

port1080.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 11:17:14 AM EST

none

I know two people on disability - my father, who has Post-Polio Syndrome, which causes him constant pain, fatigue, weakness, muscular degeneration (his thighs are as thin as my my forearms), and also reduced cognitive function due to an inability to sleep through the night and dealing with the constant pain, and my wife's aunt, who has leukemia and drop foot due to a botched hip replacement.  

Both of them would have preferred to work - my father kept getting fired or laid off from various jobs because he couldn't stay awake during the day due to the fatigue symptoms, and even after he lost his last job he took a stab at self-employment for a few years (going deeply in debt in the process) rather than apply for disability.  When he became physically unable to do that job as well, he finally applied for disability, and then had to go through two years of rejections and a court appearance before he finally got approved (at that time, post-polio syndrome was a very new diagnosis, if he was going through the process now I think he would have less trouble).

My wife's aunt, on the other hand, could still work, but her last job was for a call center.  They give employees exactly four minutes for a bathroom break, and if you go over that you get a strike against you.  Do that three times and they fire you.  Between the leukemia, which reduced her endurance, and the drop foot, there was no way she could get from her desk to the bathroom (on the other side of the call center) in four minutes.  She had asked to have her desk moved closer to the bathroom, and they refused - she was one of their longest tenured employees and was making almost double what a new hire would, and it was pretty clear they were just looking for an excuse to fire her with cause.  So, it was either apply for disability or go back to work and be fired and then have to apply for disability (who would hire someone in their early 60s with obvious health problems?) - writing was on the wall.  

I'm sure that there are people out there who are gaming the system to some extent, but based on my experience the problem is that employers aren't as willing to accommodate employees with disabilities as they might been have in the past, and also simply that there were probably a whole lot of people out there who should have been on disability, but instead bounced from job to job, barely scraping by, going into debt, and living miserable existences who now at least have some kind of safety net that can keep them off the streets (which is where my parents probably would have been if my grandparents hadn't been there to bail them out a few times).  Disability isn't a road to riches, either, unless you worked for a fair number of years at a high salary - my father collects about $800 a month, less than $10k a year.   If my mother wasn't there working a full time job, I'm not sure how he would have enough money to support himself.  If there are people who are cheating the system, by all means, expose them - but I think it's very unlikely that the majority of people on disability are cheaters, and I think that if you want to severely restrict eligibility for disability, you'd better have some kind of plan to help the people you're kicking off the rolls that's a little more fleshed out than "sucks for them, lazy leeches".

Allons-y!

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

gerrymander.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:17:51 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

The problem here isn't cheaters, it's marginal cases. You noted so yourself in your examples -- "Both of them would have preferred to work". That's a calculation. What we're seeing is the effect of people who might be willing to work, but are making rational decisions not to, based upon their understanding of the job market and their expected payout for opting out. If all it takes is a mildly sympathetic doctor to get guaranteed benefits close to what they had when they were working, it's an understandable call.

Disability isn't, as you say, a road to riches. But not everyone is in the same position as your father. There are plenty of "I"m getting 70% of my $75k/year salary, on disability" examples, too.

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

cloudofdust.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:54:01 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I'm curious how this tracks with the general demographics of workers. It seems to me that with the leading edge of the baby boomers being in their late fifties and early sixties there are a lot more people who would fall under the category of "marginal cases". People with chronic health problems who have been in the workforce for 30-40 years and decide that their best option is what amounts to early retirement via Social Security disability.

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

port1080.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 04:06:33 PM EST

none

So what's your solution?  In the past those marginal cases suffered a great deal because they had no choice but to work, often to the further detriment of their health.  I guess that's just fine by you?

Allons-y!

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 05:50:53 PM EST

none

Is there any point at which you become concerned about who's going to pay the bills, or do you really believe in magic?

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

port1080.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:19:33 PM EST

none

We could spend a little less on the military, that's a start.

Allons-y!

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:33:10 PM EST

none

We could spend a LOT less on the military.

Care to answer my question?

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

gerrymander.

Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 12:05:17 AM EST

none

In the past those marginal cases suffered a great deal because they had no choice but to work, often to the further detriment of their health.  I guess that's just fine by you?

"No choice but to work" is pretty much the definition of the working class, disability or no. And we did pass the Americans with Disabilities Act for the sole purpose of making sure those people could work. If we're not going to try to bring the marginal disabled cases into the work force, why did we bother?

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

thefadd.

Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 11:26:32 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

America's liberalized work laws make it very difficult/risky to invest in a new worker, especially one who has any special needs. A Clinton workfare-style program for the disabled who can work under certain conditions where the government guaranteed a business's costs in case something went wrong would alleviate pressures on entitlement programs and make people feel like they were contributing like they always say they want to.

I HAD HAD SEX WITH HUNTER S THOMPSON. HE CAME IN MY MOUTH AND I SWALLOWED IT. I SHOULD HAVE HAD HIS BABY. WE WOULD BE BALLIN' LIKE KOBE'S SON!!

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

indecentspeech.

Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 11:30:58 AM EST

none

...where the government guaranteed a business's costs in case something went wrong...

What do you mean by this?

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

thefadd.

Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 11:41:33 AM EST

5.00 (socialist)

So right now, essentially, the government is paying people to sit home. You could phrase it more nicely of course but basically that's what it is. Not a judgment on them or what they're capable of. Anyway, so under the program, instead of the government paying people to sit at home, they'd get paid by an employer. Why doesn't this happen now? Because the individual risks losing their benefits if they say they can work and the employer risks having to pay increased costs if the employee gets reinjured or acquires a new injury, two things they're at increased risk for given their status. So the government would essentially be using their current costs to instead guarantee no (or significantly less) risk to the individual in the form of losing what they already have and no risk to the employer in the form of disability insurance/medical costs that they'd typically be responsible for in relation to their employees. Do I like this level of involvement by the government in private commerce? No but I dislike the government de-incentivizing commerce even more.

I HAD HAD SEX WITH HUNTER S THOMPSON. HE CAME IN MY MOUTH AND I SWALLOWED IT. I SHOULD HAVE HAD HIS BABY. WE WOULD BE BALLIN' LIKE KOBE'S SON!!

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

HidingFromGoro.

Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 12:40:40 AM EST

none

Why are you complaining? I thought this is what you wanted?

In the absence of universal healthcare the burden of risk, cost, etc, gets shifted onto the employer (and the employee- but that might not be a concern for some folks).

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

thefadd.

Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 06:38:31 AM EST

none

Just saying it would be a solution that might shift some cost away from the government. I could care less as I believe both sides are overstating their cases on this point.

I HAD HAD SEX WITH HUNTER S THOMPSON. HE CAME IN MY MOUTH AND I SWALLOWED IT. I SHOULD HAVE HAD HIS BABY. WE WOULD BE BALLIN' LIKE KOBE'S SON!!

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

port1080.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:43:55 AM EST

none

Why doesn't this happen now?

Also, because we have 8% or higher unemployment in most places, and why on earth would an employer want to hire someone with a disability when there are 100 other completely healthy and equally capable candidates applying for the same job?

Allons-y!

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Re: America: Disabled Nation

port1080.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:50:46 AM EST

none

"No choice but to work" is pretty much the definition of the working class, disability or no. And we did pass the Americans with Disabilities Act for the sole purpose of making sure those people could work. If we're not going to try to bring the marginal disabled cases into the work force, why did we bother?

The problem is that we're nowhere near full employment right now.  Healthy people will get first crack at what jobs are out there, and it's also easier for a healthy person to pick up odd jobs and do what they need to do to scrape by if they still can't find a job and the unemployment runs out.  On the other hand, it's going to be almost impossible for someone with major health problems to find a job unless they're very highly skilled (and most people on disability aren't in that category - they tend to be people who were involved in manual labor jobs, since those obviously put the most wear and tear on a person's body), and if you've got chronic back problems that make it impossible to lift more than 20lb or so, you're not going to be hanging out by the Home Depot looking for some day labor work.  So it's not really a choice of work, starve, or get government assistance, it's mostly a choice of get government assistance, get really lucky, or starve.  If the economy was going full throttle, and we still saw the disability rolls growing at this rate, I'd be in full agreement with you that we need to do something about it, but right now, in this economy, what do you think the answer is?  Who is going to hire these folks?

Allons-y!

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