Legal

Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

gerrymander.

Posted to Legal on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:49:06 AM EST (promoted from Diaries by port1080). RSS.

We've gotten to the point where office-holding politicians in Boston and Chicago are declaring that a business will be denied business permits, based on the owner's Christian beliefs and legal donations to advance the same.

The Chick-fil-A restaurant chain has come increasingly under fire from pro-gay marriage advocates since the revelation that the chain's president and owner, Dan Cathy, has donated to groups that are anti-gay marriage. Most of these actions have been in the private sphere, ranging from informal boycotts to the formal severing of a business relationship by the Jim Henson Company.

This is something different. Here we have two government officials openly expressing interest in denying equal opportunity access based upon legal speech with which they disagree, against the directives of federal and respective state constitutions and local law. There have been no allegations that Chick-fil-A discriminates against gays as corporate policy through refusal of service, refusal to hire, or other disparate treatment. Likewise, there have there been no statement by that company which can be perceived as attempts to thwart gay marriage benefits guaranteed by Massachusetts or Illinois legislatures.

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1

Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

Ephraim Gadsby.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 02:14:05 PM EST

none

Menino is an imbecile. Cathy should sue him for infringing on his free speech rights.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

novy.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 07:57:34 PM EST

none

Maybe Cathy doesn't care as much as you do. Maybe you should finance his lawsuit.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

T Slothrop.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 02:29:17 PM EST

none

This is clearly chilling, but not (unfortunately) surprising given the level to which political debate has sunk in this country. I'm very interested to see what our resident TnT liberals have to say about this

[I'm not that guy.]

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

Anywhere.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 02:39:28 PM EST

none

I think it's wrong though I've personally stopped eating at Chick-Fil-A-- not a great sacrifice as I don't think the food is that good, but somewhat challenging in that I have a cousin who owns one.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

port1080.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 03:11:45 PM EST

none

I think that it's chilling that the government is getting involved in this and I disagree with these permit denials.  I don't have any problem with universities choosing to kick them out of the food court or private individuals or companies boycotting the place, though.  Do you?

Allons-y!

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

gerrymander.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 10:51:37 PM EST

none

If the university is public, then yes, I have a problem with punishing companies for legal political speech.

Technically I also have a problem with the boycotts, but that's because I oppose secondary boycotts in general, not these boycotts in specific. I have the same problem with conservative groups seeking to boycott Kraft or JC Penney for pro-gay speech.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

Anywhere.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:14:36 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

How is this-- assuming there is a "this"-- a secondary boycott?  Or, for that matter, how is the boycott of JCPenny one?  In both cases, people are boycotting based on the actions of the targetted business, not those of some third party.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

gerrymander.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:03:05 AM EST

none

They're both secondary because both involve actions outside any business relationship the aggrieved parties have with the companies. Hiring a gay spokesperson does not detrimentally affect anti-gay shoppers or employees in any significant way. And as I've mentioned above, there have been no claims that pro-gay shoppers or employees have been directly and unfairly impacted by the owner's words or donations.

In legal terms, the various protesters have no standing. Offending their sense of propriety is not legitimate harm.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

Anywhere.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:15:44 AM EST

none

And as I've mentioned above, there have been no claims that pro-gay shoppers or employees have been directly and unfairly impacted by the owner's words or donations.

Only if you don't think that preventing them from marrying-- which his donations help do-- doesn't cause them harm.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

gerrymander.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:31:55 AM EST

none

How does not being able to marry prevent a gay person from buying a chicken sandwich meal? Because that's the total extent of harm possible in the relationship of any customer to Chick-fil-A.

Or flip it around, if we need to take into account the total life experience of any business/customer interaction: the revocation of anti-gay laws over the past few decades have fostered an environment where Cathy feels he must send money to pro-traditional marriage organizations, where he might otherwise have instead donated to more traditional Christian charities -- orphans and outreach and such. Under the total life experience rule, he should have a civil rights claim against pro-gay groups and all states that have passed pro-gay rights legislation where he has a business, for making his life worse.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

Anywhere.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 11:22:46 AM EST

none

How does not being able to marry prevent a gay person from buying a chicken sandwich meal?

It doesn't prevent a gay person from buying a chicken sandwich.  Buying a chicken sandwich helps to ensure that he or she will continue to be unable to marry when a portion of the proceeds from that sandwich goes toward organizations fighting to maintain just that state of affairs.

I agree that donating to anti-gay causes instead of orphans makes Cathy's life worse.  If he thinks so, too, all he has to do is switch where he sends his donations.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

indecentspeech.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 11:45:40 AM EST

none

I say let him waste his time and money. He's swimming against the tide and it's only a matter of time before most states allow gay marriage, especially since the politics of it are now without debate on the side of gay marriage.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

Anywhere.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:25:31 AM EST

none

More to the point, I guess I always thought of a secondary boycott as, "We don't like what your supplier/country/whatever is doing, but we can't boycott them directly, so we're going to boycott you," whereas both of these boycotts are a matter of "We don't like what you're doing (i.e. having a gay-friendly marketing campaign/donating to anti-gay organizations) so we're going to boycott you."

For a secondary-- by my understanding-- boycott example, boycotting a South African business during apartheid would have been done to punish South Africa, not because the boycotters had any particular dislike for the business.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

indecentspeech.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:36:23 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

I am totally and utterly against this. The mayor is an asshole. But the situation is not all the different from the ground-zero mosque issue that happened a few years back, so it's not just mayors in Boston defying 1st amendment rights.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

Ephraim Gadsby.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 02:50:10 PM EST

5.00 (demonstrable, astute)

As recently as November of 2008 it was acceptable for Barack Obama to say: "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that's not what America's about." Now liberals believe approval of homomarriage should be a litmus test for everyone. Liberalism is incapable of stopping its own "progress" once it starts, so don't be surprised when a few years from now liberals who are not themselves homosexual are sucking cocks simply to demonstrate how tolerant they are.

 

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

Anywhere.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 03:05:28 PM EST

none

Now liberals believe approval of homomarriage should be a litmus test for everyone.

There is a difference between giving my business to someone with whom I disagree and giving my business to someone who is going to use the proceeds to campaign for a cause with which I disagree.  As this particular cause is the oppression of others' rights, it is egregious enough to affect my purchasing decisions.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

HidingFromGoro.

Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 12:34:18 AM EST

5.00 (black)

As recently as November of 2008 it was acceptable for Barack Obama to say: "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that's not what America's about."

He also said he'd close GITMO.  Only an idiot would believe anything that comes out of Black Reagan's mouth.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

Ephraim Gadsby.

Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 01:26:26 PM EST

none

Black Reagan? More like half-white Robert Mugabe.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

gerrymander.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 07:11:20 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Apart from its brazenness, the thing that gets me is the overt assumption that the discussion will take place on their terms: "'You have the right to say what you want to say, but zoning is not a right,' he said, adding that he also had concerns about traffic in the area."

Does anyone really believe that if some politician had said, "I don't want any Muslim terrorists running businesses in my neighborhood, and there's too much traffic anyway," the future debate would be about traffic?

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

novy.

Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 09:06:15 PM EST

5.00 (informative, funny)

This sort of thing wouldn't happen in Canada.

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Even Menino Knows

novy.

Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 12:28:09 PM EST

none

He can't really stop Chik-Fil-A from opening in Boston.

But you apparently either didn't know or didn't care. If Liberals had complained about something as silly as this (maybe some Mayor in Texas complaining about Ben N Jerry's ice cream or some such), you would have jumped all over them, appropriately enough.

"Look, look, Liberals want to take away my civil rights because I believe in Christianity and conservatism. They can't, really, but they want to." Not like conservatives, who look for every opportunity to respect Liberals' rights.

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Rights and equality

Ephraim Gadsby.

Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 02:50:09 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

From the second link:

Rick Garcia, a longtime Illinois gay rights activist who is a policy adviser to The Civil Rights Agenda group that was working with Moreno and Chick-fil-A on LGBT issues, lauded Moreno's decision.

"I think it's important that the city sends a message that we want business here ... but what we can't have and don't want are businesses that have discriminatory roles," Garcia said, adding that he's a defender of free speech.

Liberals do not support traditional rights - freedom of speech, freedom of association, or the right to keep and bear arms. The guiding principle of liberalism is universal equality, and for liberals all rights and outcomes are subordinate to it.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

pO157.

Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 11:06:41 AM EST

none

This is beyond fatuous. Agree with Chik-Fil-A or not, their stance on this issue has no bearing on their ability to get a restaurant license or not. The government should not be making permitting issues based on this question. The people involved deserve to get sued.

America! I could teach you, but I'd have to charge.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

thefadd.

Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 06:59:55 AM EST

none

It's not even chick fil a's stance! This is the thing that gets me. It's just some old white dude who yes happens to be president but it's still just his personal opinion. It's not as if it's 1961 and the company created an anti gay policy and flags effeminate men at the door. The company itself takes no openly anti-homosexual actions and there are plenty of ways already provided to the government to intervene if they did.

I HAD HAD SEX WITH HUNTER S THOMPSON. HE CAME IN MY MOUTH AND I SWALLOWED IT. I SHOULD HAVE HAD HIS BABY. WE WOULD BE BALLIN' LIKE KOBE'S SON!!

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

HidingFromGoro.

Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 07:46:00 PM EST

none

It's just some old white dude who yes happens to be president

Should employers be allowed to set limits on employee behavior if such behavior might impact the company?  When is a salaried employee off the clock?

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

thefadd.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 06:19:14 PM EST

none

what behavior has chick-fil-a limited?

I HAD HAD SEX WITH HUNTER S THOMPSON. HE CAME IN MY MOUTH AND I SWALLOWED IT. I SHOULD HAVE HAD HIS BABY. WE WOULD BE BALLIN' LIKE KOBE'S SON!!

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

HidingFromGoro.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 10:33:12 PM EST

1.00 (reaching)

i can't know that any more than you can.  i'm asking if they should be allowed to limit the behavior of any employee.

I got more styles than prison got bricks- ain't that some shit?

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

thefadd.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 11:34:57 PM EST

none

I'd assume if they had it would have been wiped all over the headlines. Other than that what an employee and employer agree to is pretty much between them so long as it's lawful.

I HAD HAD SEX WITH HUNTER S THOMPSON. HE CAME IN MY MOUTH AND I SWALLOWED IT. I SHOULD HAVE HAD HIS BABY. WE WOULD BE BALLIN' LIKE KOBE'S SON!!

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

Gaius Petronius.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 02:23:34 PM EST

none

Today, on Gov. Huckabee's "Chik Fil-A Appreciation Day", the store on Chicago's trendy Michigan Avenue was doing a strong business.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

gerrymander.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 05:26:21 PM EST

5.00 (classy)

But not in Martinsburg, WV -- mostly due to the bomb threat. Stay classy, gay rights supporters.

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Re: Civil Rights For Me, Not For Thee

gerrymander.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 10:25:21 PM EST

none

Another fine example of liberal tolerance on display. Good job, dude! You can berate a line worker at a fast food joint and feel good about yourself! Go, you!

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Video Mysteriously Missing.

Haggis.

Thu Aug 02, 2012 at 06:18:01 AM EST

none

Dude, you should have gotten the order right and you wouldn't have to take any grief from the customer.

I am shitfitter; hear me roar.

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Heh. "Video removed by user :-("

gerrymander.

Thu Aug 02, 2012 at 10:51:24 AM EST

none

Shame you missed it.

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The Internet saves everything!

gerrymander.

Thu Aug 02, 2012 at 11:11:20 AM EST

none

Someone else re-loaded the video for him.

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Re: The Internet saves everything!

Anywhere.

Thu Aug 02, 2012 at 01:35:59 PM EST

none

What an asshole.

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Re: The Internet saves everything!

Haggis.

Thu Aug 02, 2012 at 03:47:35 PM EST

none

Did he just waste the better part of 20 minutes in the drive thru lane burning gas just to get his cup of water to make his point?  And did he end up pointing out to those servers that he is "totally heterosexual, not a drop of gay" as an adieu?  Yes, he did.  One hopes those hippies he was pointing out looking like they were going to stage a sit in decided to egg his car because they thought he was patronizing Chick-Fil-A.

I am shitfitter; hear me roar.

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Re: The Internet saves everything!

gerrymander.

Thu Aug 02, 2012 at 11:35:45 PM EST

none

Aaand he's fired.

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Re: The Internet saves everything!

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 06:27:57 AM EST

none

He needs to update his LinkedIn profile.

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Re: The Internet saves everything!

Haggis.

Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 07:51:38 AM EST

none

His next gig -- replacing the cows on the Chick-Fil-A billboard campaign.  It will feature a screenshot of him talking into the camera with a headline of "EET MOAR KROW".

I am shitfitter; hear me roar.

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Bad karma thing to do

gerrymander.

Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 05:25:01 PM EST

none

Gay marriage supporters mock a black Bible-reading bum outside of the Chick-fil-A in Chicago. Someone wrote a chalk message calling him gay, which I guess is an insult?

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